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A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

theguardian.com

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Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#41

Post by Beltalowda »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #22
superchroma wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think, in life, sometimes we just don't quite think things through. You're busy, preoccupied, whatever. You don't get all the facts and just assume the best. You get to the auction and realize your daughter loves the goat a lot. You don't spend all day in an analytical mode, anticipating the worst cases, and then things happen and it's then too late to act. It's like being careless where you park your nice car and…

> or we can advocate for change and try to be more patient, kind and accepting, and, I think, I would like to advocate the latter 4-H auctions finance the programme. If the auctions become unreliable because parents couldn’t bother to identify an attachment early and message their intent to renegotiate a contract until right before the auction, the programme is threatened. It’s also baffling the parents didn’t try to…

> It’s also baffling the parents didn’t try to buy the goat off the purchaser

I think they did? That's how I read "Long offered to “pay back” the fair for the loss of Cedar’s income" anyway.

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#42

Post by JumpCrisscross »

uxcolumbo wrote: post #19
superchroma wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would guess because the notion of telling children hard truths is not the key issue in this event, and you're kind of taking a moment for animal rights advocacy which people can find obnoxious. Both are an important topic for discussion, for sure.

Thanks - but this is about animal rights and our culture of eating meat, is it not? If those people who took away the goat had more compassion then this little girl would still have her goat friend. The little girl and the goat had a bond and it was broken because we just view these animals as objects / property and not as sentient beings that 'are too much like us' as Carl Sagan used to say.

> is about animal rights and our culture of eating meat, is it not?

One can make it about anything. These parents aren’t advocating against goats being slaughtered. I doubt any of them will stop eating meat. They’re advocating for a specific property interest.

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#43

Post by batch12 »

uxcolumbo wrote: post #8

I feel for this little girl - for losing her friend. I think if more parents would explain to kids where meat comes from most would react like Indie-Rose - another little kid[0] - who said: "I don't want to chop up animal people" And there are so many more kids realizing on their own what they are eating. They don't want to eat Peppa the pig & friends and yet we (mostly) force them to eat them. And there are so many…

I think if we showed kids from a very young age the processing of animals they likely not be traumatized for life. It'd be normal for them. I do believe that people should know where their food comes from and how it's made. I don't have any concerns with teaching kids how to hunt, farm, and harvest livestock.

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#44

Post by [deleted] »

bombcar wrote: post #37
joe_guy wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> am a fan of honoring contracts and sales. It's perfectly acceptable to violate a contract. It doesn't matter you're not a fan of this. As long as you follow through with the terms of violating it. > Breach of contract is not a crime or even a tort. Punitive damages are generally not an available remedy. The only remedies are to make the non-breaching party whole. The main theory behind this rule is that the law sho…

If you sell someone a car, and then go take it back, you’re not violating a contact, you’re stealing a car. If you never deliver it, maybe that’s arguable but even then it could often be considered theft.

[deleted]

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#45

Post by vogt »

joe_guy wrote: post #27
vogt wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parents were the ones who confiscated someone else’s property when the goat was sold. But yeah, I agree, they do, you’re barking up the wrong tree if you think you’re going to stick it to me with ACAB sentiment because I am no fan of the state or police. I am a fan of honoring contracts and sales.

> am a fan of honoring contracts and sales. It's perfectly acceptable to violate a contract. It doesn't matter you're not a fan of this. As long as you follow through with the terms of violating it. > Breach of contract is not a crime or even a tort. Punitive damages are generally not an available remedy. The only remedies are to make the non-breaching party whole. The main theory behind this rule is that the law sho…

> It's perfectly acceptable to violate a contract. It doesn't matter you're not a fan of this. As long as you follow through with the terms of violating it.

You are either being voluntarily ignorant or pedantic, I’m not sure which, but of course it doesn’t matter if I’m a fan of it. You know who also is a fan of enforcing contracts? The state, when they fund an agricultural program you sell an animal through and then don’t hold up your end of the bargain.

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#46

Post by JumpCrisscross »

krisoft wrote: post #40
vogt wrote: post #6

Look, I’m an animal lover and what a nightmare for that little girl, but I don’t think that her parents did her any favors by not preparing her mentally for what was to come. The animals being sold at auction is part and parcel of the 4H experience, or many families will opt to have the animal slaughtered themselves. It sounds like they brought this goat to auction where it was sold and then tried to re-neg on the sa…

> If she bonded that closely to the animal they should have kept it on the property and not brought it to the 4H show. What are you talking about? They kept it on property and law enforcement agents turned up (without a warant, inserting themselves into a civil dispute) and stole their goat. This is the contentious point. What business did those law enforcement agents had to enter their private property and steal a g…

> What business did those law enforcement agents had to enter their private property and steal a goat from them?

You can’t use property rights to defend the parents.

The goat had been auctioned. Arguing for the family is arguing for a compassionate carve-out from regular property rights.

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#47

Post by TimPC »

There are multiple property right violations here and the body of law is not all that clear. 4-H violated the parent’s property rights to the goat by proceeding with the auction against their will. At this point it becomes unclear who the legitimate owner of the property is, it may still be the parents as auctions of stolen property don’t make ownership legitimate. I think making the buyer of the goat financially whole is a reasonable outcome here and police operating out of county and seizing property without due process is clearly not.

4-H doesn’t get to use its principles to force an auction upon unwilling sellers. If they had partial or full ownership of the goat this might be different but as long as the parents and child have bought the goat as part of raising it they can’t proceed with the auction against the wishes of that parent and child.

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#49

Post by JumpCrisscross »

TimPC wrote: post #47

There are multiple property right violations here and the body of law is not all that clear. 4-H violated the parent’s property rights to the goat by proceeding with the auction against their will. At this point it becomes unclear who the legitimate owner of the property is, it may still be the parents as auctions of stolen property don’t make ownership legitimate. I think making the buyer of the goat financially who…

> 4-H violated the parent’s property rights to the goat by proceeding with the auction against their will

4-H programs typically loan a goat to a family to raise for the intention of teaching livestock husbandry. The goat is never legally the family’s property. (Not sure about this case.)

EDIT: It appears this program involves purchasing the goat. Suing the police is still stupid. They were enforcing a purchase and sale under warrant [1]. There may be a case against the Fair, depending on when the auction contract bound the parents to the sale. (The parents attempted to terminate the auction on the show date. Had they done so literally the day before, this would have been, based on the case, open and shut.)

[1] https://dig.abclocal.go.com/kgo/PDF/2022-08-31-Complaint.pdf page 9

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#50

Post by vogt »

krisoft wrote: post #40
vogt wrote: post #6

Look, I’m an animal lover and what a nightmare for that little girl, but I don’t think that her parents did her any favors by not preparing her mentally for what was to come. The animals being sold at auction is part and parcel of the 4H experience, or many families will opt to have the animal slaughtered themselves. It sounds like they brought this goat to auction where it was sold and then tried to re-neg on the sa…

> If she bonded that closely to the animal they should have kept it on the property and not brought it to the 4H show. What are you talking about? They kept it on property and law enforcement agents turned up (without a warant, inserting themselves into a civil dispute) and stole their goat. This is the contentious point. What business did those law enforcement agents had to enter their private property and steal a g…

What are you talking about? Is everyone who responded completely unfamiliar with agriculture and 4H programs? The animal was bought to be auctioned, and WAS auctioned at the 4H fair. The article literally says the girl had a breakdown _at_ the auction.
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