Unsustainable. If you're a wealthy individual living in an expensive residence surrounded by other wealthy individuals living in expensive residences, you still need garbagemen to collect your garbage. You still need food. Whether you order from local restaurants staffed by employees, or buy your groceries at the supermarket, staffed by employees, janitorial personnel, security guards, and managers, you're still rely…
The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal
41–50 of 817 posts
Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal
#42Earlier quoted context omitted.
Unless you have really crappy weather, like here in Sweden :-p
What do you mean. Sweden has hugely inflated housing prices.
Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal
#43This same story seems to be playing out anywhere that attracts it and allows it.
There are good arguments that foreigners should only be allowed to own real estate only in specific places and that citizenship should be by blood only for small countries - let's say under 100000 sq km and 50 million people. Too easy for them to be overtaken by global elite otherwise.
What are the good arguments ?
Do you think the “global elite” is invading Portugal ?
Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal
#44I wonder how much Airbnb is to blame on the raising rents around the world. Why charge a "local" rate when you can charge 5x that rate for a tourist paying in $$$? Even if you don't, just knowing about Airbnb's extremely high prices will most likely put inflationary pressure on rents.
More than anything, NIMBY neighbors keep killing less expensive forms of housing... 100's of homes, I would say, in the time since I started observing the situation.
STR's make for a convenient bogeyman that people can point their finger at. It's a bit more disturbing when you realize it's actually your neighbors; kind, ordinary people in most regards.
Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal
#45What countries aren't struggling with this sort of dynamic? I almost think that the US is doing pretty well with this in the sense that you can still move somewhere that's cheap relative to your salary, but that only holds true if you're able to do it with remote work. So, maybe it's not true at all.
The US is pretty bad from this point of view from what I recall, compared to other places where it's generally legal to build a broader variety of housing in cities. But perhaps it just got bad here early compared to other places. Portugal's demographics, like much of western Europe, didn't look like they were going to change dramatically: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Portugal - so getting set up to…
But the US is large and there are places where housing really isn't the issue (but there can be other issues, too).
Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal
#46Unsustainable. If you're a wealthy individual living in an expensive residence surrounded by other wealthy individuals living in expensive residences, you still need garbagemen to collect your garbage. You still need food. Whether you order from local restaurants staffed by employees, or buy your groceries at the supermarket, staffed by employees, janitorial personnel, security guards, and managers, you're still rely…
Apparently the wealthy with vacation homes on Cape Cod didn't get your memo. Our local businesses don't have enough workers due to unattainable housing. Enjoy your long lines, reduced hours and hollow communities! At least there will be lots of pickleball courts!
due to not paying enough
Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal
#47I hope Portugal won't tackle it like my country, with a cap on rent and other market distortions. I think that only makes it worse. Fun fact: I - as a single - live in a way too big, luxurious and expensive apartment because of this. I rented it, when I was still working for the man and was making a killing. Now I live a much more modest 4-hour-workweek life. It would be better for me to move to an apartment half the…
Heavily taxing houses that stay empty and limiting short duration rental could be quite effective. The issue is somewhat the same in Paris. It’s very hard to afford living there because non local use properties as an investment and prefer them staying empty than risking them degraded and people who want to rent make more money on Airbnb. It’s fine if you want the city to become Disneyland but very depressing otherwis…
It's easy to implement, the market exists to price that amount, and provides a direct incentive to either put the property to productive use or get rid of it.
Building physical houses to sit empty as a financial instrument has to be one of the peaks of capitalist insanity.
Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal
#48- Increasing income inequality short-circuiting the backpressure role of market pricing (and, more specifically, the use of home ownership and immigrant-investor programs as a way to sidestep restrictive immigration systems)
- Countries attempting to replicate the American suburban lifestyle, which is economically unsustainable as voters are incentivized to constrain supply in favor of "line go up"
- The economic gravity of living in a large city.
The econ 101 explanation of markets is that increasing price lowers demand, but this is determined by the "elasticity" of the supply and demand curves. The shapes of the curves determines what the market will do when supply or demand shifts. But if these curves are straight lines, or "inelastic"; then suppliers or buyers do not compromise on quantity and the market gouges people.
Supply is inelastic: most cities are hostile to redevelopment and all the economically-viable land in the city has been used up. No matter how expensive housing gets, people will not be able to build more of it, so price goes up more. In fact, when housing gets more valuable, there is more political resistance to increasing supply, which makes prices go up more.
Demand is inelastic: most housing buyers need to own a house. Homelessness is at best inconvenient and at worst illegal. Moving out of a city is expensive, and will require finding new employment, possibly at a lower hourly rate or salary.
The end result is that the housing market works less like a market and more like NFTs pre-a-few-months-ago. It is politically engineered to ensure quick and profitable exits for the vast majority of homeowners. However, this process cannot go on forever; because eventually home costs will outstrip wages, which puts backpressure on the whole "line go up" thing.
This is where the rich and powerful come in. They do not respond to pricing backpressure the same way you or me do. If a flat in Portugal is a million euros instead of half a million, who the hell cares? They can afford it anyway. They represent "greatest fools" - people who can resolve a speculative bubble by just buying the asset and not caring about it.
It's also kind of a mistake to say that "the Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal". The population is not a monolith; it's more correct to say that today's middle class Portuguese cannot afford to live in their own country, but prior decades' middle classes absolutely could have, and the price inflation in the housing market is specifically to the benefit of those people.
Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal
#49I hope Portugal won't tackle it like my country, with a cap on rent and other market distortions. I think that only makes it worse. Fun fact: I - as a single - live in a way too big, luxurious and expensive apartment because of this. I rented it, when I was still working for the man and was making a killing. Now I live a much more modest 4-hour-workweek life. It would be better for me to move to an apartment half the…
Heavily taxing houses that stay empty and limiting short duration rental could be quite effective. The issue is somewhat the same in Paris. It’s very hard to afford living there because non local use properties as an investment and prefer them staying empty than risking them degraded and people who want to rent make more money on Airbnb. It’s fine if you want the city to become Disneyland but very depressing otherwis…
I would think only a small one-digit percentage?
Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal
#50Earlier quoted context omitted.
There are good arguments that foreigners should only be allowed to own real estate only in specific places and that citizenship should be by blood only for small countries - let's say under 100000 sq km and 50 million people. Too easy for them to be overtaken by global elite otherwise.
> There are good arguments that foreigners should only be allowed to own real estate only in specific places What are the good arguments ? Do you think the “global elite” is invading Portugal ?