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What Does Israel Fear from This ‘Terrorist’? (2021)

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Re: What Does Israel Fear from This ‘Terrorist’? (2021)

#41

Post by hpcjoe »

zen_1 wrote: post #29
hpcjoe wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Source for the historical "facts" ? I'd love to read up on this. The 750k refugees "expelled" (overwhelming historical documentary evidence exists of the vast majority leaving as a result of their leaders telling them to leave so they could kill the jews, and then let them come back) seems to omit the 850k (again historically well documented) jews expelled from arab lands post 1948. Simple google searches will provid…

The "Arab leaders told the Palestinians to flee" line is an old and tired piece of zionist propaganda, mostly used to "justify" the double standard of barring Palestinians whose grandparents were expelled (by claiming they left of their own flee will) from returning to Palestine, while extending the right of return to foreign Jews whose last ancestors who lived in the region most likely did so under the Roman empire.…

Using Zionist as a pejorative is a clear indication of personal bias, but you do you.

Here's a good history of this conflict[1]. Worth a read. Labeling something you disagree with as propaganda, when there is so much documentary evidence supporting the thing you label thusly, is not a good argumentation strategy.

The arabs who were refugees were not expelled. They were not re-admitted. As the article notes, the failures of the arab leadership and their inability to come to terms and negotiate in good faith with the new political leadership has lead to 75+ years of their own diaspora. As the article notes, these were not innocent, nor victims.

Their children, held in these conditions for decades, should have been resettled where they landed. If they want even a chance of returning to Israel, they should bury their sword, create a genuine peace. Amazing things would happen then.

Though, given the chant is "river to sea ...", I don't expect this to occur in anyone's lifetime.

The arabs launched a war of aggression. They lost. They lost the subsequent wars they launched. Their people were displaced by those wars. They aren't victims of anything but terrible leadership.

Israel isn't going anywhere.

[1] http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/782

Re: What Does Israel Fear from This ‘Terrorist’? (2021)

#42

Post by jacooper »

hpcjoe wrote: post #34
zen_1 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Defending themselves from a genocide in Europe by ethnically cleansing Palestinians? You have a curious way of defining defense.

Comparing the plight of the arabs to the holocaust is a terrible injustice to the real holocaust victims. One group was systematically hunted down, murdered for who they were, assets stolen and distributed with legal fights going on to this day to recover them, children and women slaughtered for the joy of their tormentors .... to people who were ordered to flee their homes by their leaders, and then denied re-entry…

Are you kidding me?

> to people who were ordered to flee their homes by their leaders, and then denied re-entry by the new political entity..

Whats happening in Palestine is people "ordered to leave their homes" and then because of "political entity" can't return???

If you want to say the removal of rights to return to your own land, you house getting destroyed and losing all your belongings, children, Innocent people and Journalists getting killed everyday, illegal arrests and the Third holliest mosque in Islam getting regularly attacked, are all because of a "polticial entity",

Than one can argue the Holocaust was also because of a "Political entity" that was voted in by people.

Now that we apply this weird logic to the Holocaust it suddenly doesn't work huh?

Re: What Does Israel Fear from This ‘Terrorist’? (2021)

#44

Post by sstein0 »

achenet wrote: post #39
ethotool wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Palestinians are still suffering today as we speak. Why don’t you show me human rights abuses that have been happening for 80 years and are still ongoing?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_colonial_histor... Slavery in the American colonies went from ~1526 to 1776 (250 years), plus another ~90 years post independence. Palestinians can still vote, and are considered to be actual people, with the right to self-determination. Also, Soviet Union, China.

[flagged]

Re: What Does Israel Fear from This ‘Terrorist’? (2021)

#45

Post by zen_1 »

hpcjoe wrote: post #41
zen_1 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "Arab leaders told the Palestinians to flee" line is an old and tired piece of zionist propaganda, mostly used to "justify" the double standard of barring Palestinians whose grandparents were expelled (by claiming they left of their own flee will) from returning to Palestine, while extending the right of return to foreign Jews whose last ancestors who lived in the region most likely did so under the Roman empire.…

Using Zionist as a pejorative is a clear indication of personal bias, but you do you. Here's a good history of this conflict[1]. Worth a read. Labeling something you disagree with as propaganda, when there is so much documentary evidence supporting the thing you label thusly, is not a good argumentation strategy. The arabs who were refugees were not expelled. They were not re-admitted. As the article notes, the failu…

I'm using zionist as an accurate description of the viewpoint the propaganda advances, no value judgement attached or implied, but you do you.

I know I won't change your mind (or your victim complex) over the internet, but for what it's worth I truly hope you find the truth (or Al Haq), and I'll leave it at that.

Re: What Does Israel Fear from This ‘Terrorist’? (2021)

#46

Post by hpcjoe »

ethotool wrote: post #38
hpcjoe wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I look at what transpired during the Evian conference[1]. Yeah, I really don't have much sympathy for europeans not wanting to feel guilty. Sins of the father, sure. But they continue the hostile-to-jews policies and actions to this date. So yeah, if they feel guilty and ashamed of what their fore bearers did ... mebbe ... just mebbe ... they should rethink their behavior of joining with avowed jew haters to persecut…

Or you won’t answer the question because you know the answer..? Your logic is flawed and makes no sense. Typical though, these regurgitated talking points are not unusual ;)

Typical lefty argument. Introduce a non-sequitur straw-man and make arguments attempting to divert discussion there when you know you've lost the argument.

This discussion, again, is not about Ukraine. It's about the propaganda piece mis-published here on HN, and the commentary that followed. Some are reasonable points, others are repeating narratives that are not supported by facts, but make for nice soundbites, to replace reasonable arguments.

A simple proposal for fixing the real issue. 1) arabs who lived in Israel accept that their side lost, multiple times, and make peace with Israel. 2) Israel welcomes new peaceful citizens back in. #1 won't happen before #2, and given how long and hard arabs have fought the very existence of Israel, I doubt many Israelis are open to considering any re-integration.

That is literally all it would take to get peace. Which means, it will never happen.

Until then, we all recognize the narratives for what they are.

Re: What Does Israel Fear from This ‘Terrorist’? (2021)

#47

Post by hpcjoe »

ethotool wrote: post #40
hpcjoe wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comparing the plight of the arabs to the holocaust is a terrible injustice to the real holocaust victims. One group was systematically hunted down, murdered for who they were, assets stolen and distributed with legal fights going on to this day to recover them, children and women slaughtered for the joy of their tormentors .... to people who were ordered to flee their homes by their leaders, and then denied re-entry…

Not really. Sounds exactly like what the Israelis have been doing to the Palestinians since they confiscated their lands.

So ... let me get this straight.

You are happily comparing industrial scale extermination, tossing babies into the air and catching them on bayonets, digging gold from murdered peoples mouths ... to ... the voluntary evacuation of a land at war?

You are really doing this?

Seriously?

Re: What Does Israel Fear from This ‘Terrorist’? (2021)

#48

Post by sstein0 »

hpcjoe wrote: post #24
ethotool wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Palestinians lived there for over 2000 years. Mainly Muslims and Christians but also a small percentage of Palestinian Jews (1%). It wasn’t until Zionisim and the movement that was first founded before WWI who conspired with the British to illegally take over Palestinian lands and expel over 750,000 refugees to neighboring countries.

Source for the historical "facts" ? I'd love to read up on this. The 750k refugees "expelled" (overwhelming historical documentary evidence exists of the vast majority leaving as a result of their leaders telling them to leave so they could kill the jews, and then let them come back) seems to omit the 850k (again historically well documented) jews expelled from arab lands post 1948. Simple google searches will provid…

No post body was provided.

Re: What Does Israel Fear from This ‘Terrorist’? (2021)

#49

Post by hpcjoe »

jacooper wrote: post #42
hpcjoe wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comparing the plight of the arabs to the holocaust is a terrible injustice to the real holocaust victims. One group was systematically hunted down, murdered for who they were, assets stolen and distributed with legal fights going on to this day to recover them, children and women slaughtered for the joy of their tormentors .... to people who were ordered to flee their homes by their leaders, and then denied re-entry…

Are you kidding me? > to people who were ordered to flee their homes by their leaders, and then denied re-entry by the new political entity.. Whats happening in Palestine is people "ordered to leave their homes" and then because of "political entity" can't return??? If you want to say the removal of rights to return to your own land, you house getting destroyed and losing all your belongings, children, Innocent peopl…

Wow ... just so much to unpack here. So much.

Arabs left at the behest of their leadership, to return when the arab armies were victorious in the 1948 war. The arabs lost. And they lost all the subsequent wars. In 1967 they massed armies on the borders, readying attacks. They were beaten. Again. Very badly.

1973. Same thing. Etc.

Innocent people getting killed every day ... you mean the random attacks in cities? Where terrorists run around with knives, and guns, and mow people over with cars and truck, and blow up busses? What has been the response to that? A wall.

Or the absolutely uncontestable image of a war crime as a terrorist government launches missiles indiscriminately at millions of civilians including millions of children, while the rational government of Israel works to destroy those missles? And then the subsequent outcry when Israel defends herself by destroying the launch capability which, the terrorist government has committed another war crime by placing these in civilian areas ...

The temple mount is the holiest site in judaism. And no jew is attacking, storming, pouncing, on the temple mount.

The people who left Israel upon its founding, need only accept its existence and make peace.

Re: What Does Israel Fear from This ‘Terrorist’? (2021)

#50

Post by ethotool »

hpcjoe wrote: post #46
ethotool wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you won’t answer the question because you know the answer..? Your logic is flawed and makes no sense. Typical though, these regurgitated talking points are not unusual ;)

Typical lefty argument. Introduce a non-sequitur straw-man and make arguments attempting to divert discussion there when you know you've lost the argument. This discussion, again, is not about Ukraine. It's about the propaganda piece mis-published here on HN, and the commentary that followed. Some are reasonable points, others are repeating narratives that are not supported by facts, but make for nice soundbites, to…

I didn’t expect you to actually answer it because I know it’s complicated. I’m just pointing out your hypocrisy. Not everyone hates Jews. How can anyone express their frustrations with what’s happening to the Palestinians without you accusing them of disliking Jews? Do you expect us to just accept what’s happening and remain silent?
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