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PAL Colour Recovery from black-and-white ‘telerecordings’ (2008)

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Re: PAL Colour Recovery from black-and-white ‘telerecordings’ (2008)

#41
post #10

In Australia before the official introduction/launch date of PAL colour television in 1975 it was a requirement of the then, now defunct, broadcasting regulator, the ABCB - Australian Broadcasting Control Board for television stations to remove any colour content from their TV broadcasts. (During the conversion period leading up to the launch stations would run a mixture of B&W and colour material within their statio…

What was the benefit / reasoning for removing colour content?

> What was the benefit / reasoning for removing colour content?

Studio's filming for TV optimized the colors of their sets for contrast on a B&W TV set. Which meant they used ugly colors (cheapest paint available which worked) which were not meant to be reproduced.

Re: PAL Colour Recovery from black-and-white ‘telerecordings’ (2008)

#42
This is a perfect use for image to image ML models...

Throughout one recording, the phase shift caused by the distortion of the glass screen is probably approximately the same - and therefore could be learned.

Then for the actual decoding, certain elements of the frame should be of approximately known colours - for example someone's face should be skin colour. That then informs the colours for neighbouring objects, since over a small area phase is consistent.

Applying such techniques repeatedly over the whole video, trying to minimize inconsistencies, I'd bet you can get really good results.

Re: PAL Colour Recovery from black-and-white ‘telerecordings’ (2008)

#43
post #2

Black&White-tv was almost HD, 625x625. Then they added 3Mhz color-carrier in 1966 and it was 300x300 with this color-furze on top. This sucked so much. There was nothing I wanted see in living color. Especially winter-sports were mostly BW. I remember that color movies sucked also in 1950s. Technicolor has annoying fuzziness around objects. See Wizard of Oz.

You're confusing the analogue horizontal resolution, with the high bandwidth of up to 5 MHz, with the digital number of vertical lines, which is fixed at 625 per frame, or the low bandwidth of 15 625 lines per second. No amount of chroma noise will change the latter. And as for the former, the analogue horizontal resolution, the higest horizontal resolution you could get, even at 6 MHz bandwidth, would have been 380 analogue lines - nowhere near 625. So, that's 625 lines down, and that's fixed - you couldn't change it. And only about 380 across, and yes, that could be affected by noise, chroma subcarrier, etc.

And speaking of chroma subcarrier, yes, you will often see crappy chroma fuzz on a black-and-white image, but the reason for that is that the TV set did not have a chroma filter (exactly what they are talking about in this thread). In fact, as I'm answering that, I'm realising that THAT was probably the reason they had to filter out the colour - because it would look crappy on older black-and-white sets that did not have a chroma filter installed. Bingo!

But I have a couple of circuits from like 30 years ago that converted NTSC or PAL to RGB, and yes, they have the required filter, or you did indeed see the little blockies from NTSC or diagonal fringing on PAL colour transients.

Interesting discussion!

Re: PAL Colour Recovery from black-and-white ‘telerecordings’ (2008)

#44
post #6
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more obvious in US NTSC that the PAL being discussed here .... essentially the colour subcarrier was put way out in the high freq part of the luma signal - display - anything with too high a bandwidth and it stomps on the colour - you've all seen this happen on analog TV ... and it has had profound effects on fashion .... let me explain ... So what does "high frequency luma" mean? it means that the brightness of…

I remember going to the US in 1998 and being shocked at how bad NTSC TV looked compared to PAL, the colours just looked wrong.

Did you try and adjust the hue? That was a necessary step in getting the colours right over in NTSC land. If you didn't adjust it, yes, you got pictures that were too magenta or too green. That said, I have an NTSC LaserDisc player still plugged in today, and if the hue is appropriately set, the colours are perfectly fine.

Re: PAL Colour Recovery from black-and-white ‘telerecordings’ (2008)

#45
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember going to the US in 1998 and being shocked at how bad NTSC TV looked compared to PAL, the colours just looked wrong.

For technical reasons inherent in the chosen standard, NTSC TV sets required hue and color knobs, unlike PAL and SECAM. This effectively left it up to the consumer to adjust those values, with no accounting for variances in eyesight or taste. Unfortunately it meant that entire households had to endure the choices of whomever (Dad?) controlled the TV. On visits to others' homes it was painful to see how apallingly bad…

I'm guessing that watching PAL/SECAM requires slightly slower phosphors that NTSC and you'd see flicker on a modern computer monitor designed for 60-75 HZ ....

Re: PAL Colour Recovery from black-and-white ‘telerecordings’ (2008)

#46
post #41
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What was the benefit / reasoning for removing colour content?

> What was the benefit / reasoning for removing colour content? Studio's filming for TV optimized the colors of their sets for contrast on a B&W TV set. Which meant they used ugly colors (cheapest paint available which worked) which were not meant to be reproduced.

Also the chroma (4.43 MHz subcarrier) was visible[1] on B&W sets and could be somewhat annoying, especially so on those with good focus and resolution. Moreover, by the time colour was introduced B&W sets had progressed to having quite reasonable resolution and could easily display content with a resolution of 4.43MHz.

These 'artifacts' would be made worse when optical herringbone effects, etc. were generated from the mixing of the visible subcarrier with certain types of image content such as striped suits or any content containing closely spaced lines of reasonably high contrast.

This type of content was always a worry even before the colour/subcarrier issue as it could mix with the scan lines to produce unpleasant optical beating-type effects.

Some TV stations even had dress code policies to avoid the problem but they were often ignored even before colour was introduced (it's often a bit tricky to tell an important dignitary to change his suit or striped tie before he appears on camera). :-)

__

[1] Note: in colour TV sets the chroma subcarrier is intrinsically suppressed by the PAL system (which converts the S/C to colour info) although some artifacts remain because of bandwidth, switching issues and other system limitations.

It should be remembered early TV systems faced huge engineering obstacles and the 405, 525, CCIR 625 and 819-line system standards were remarkable engineering developments in their own right given the engineering strictures of the time - so colour wasn't on the agenda when they were developed.

Essentially, colour was an afterthought that had to be retrofitted to and be compatible with these existing B&W television standards.

The biggest problem was that the colour subsystem had to be fitted within the existing broadcast spectrum, that being the bandwidth of a TV channel which was typically 6, 7 or 8 MHz depending on system or country. And back then this was no easy feat.

Moreover, squeezing in colour became an even bigger challenge given that bandwidth-limiting techniques were already being employed to reduce spectrum usage, for instance, interlaced scanning and broadcasting video in reduced-bandwidth vestigial sideband.

Overcoming the bandwidth-limitation challenge posed formidable problems but eventually cleaver minds solved them with some ingenious solutions the first of which was the NTSC Color System. It was followed up with SECAM and PAL which were in essence variants of NTSC and the raison d'être for their development was to overcome NTSC's 'phase' problem wherein colours could easily drift from the original.

SECAM and PAL had ingenious but quite different ways of 'clamping' down this 'phase-shifting' problem and both were successful at doing so. Leaving national interests/pride aside (SECAM-Fr, PAL-Deu), arguments over which scheme was best revolved around considerations of the technical issues such as bandwidth tradeoff versus amount of phase shift correction that was deemed possible and such. Also included were matters such as the amount of residual artifacts that the colour information would introduce into the main luminance component.

Now, I'm not going to get into that perennial debate about whether SECAM or PAL is better except to say that my primary television experience was gained from working within a CCIR-625/PAL environment and it's a excellent system. But then so is SECAM excellent, and I can attest to that having spent considerable time in France watching it.

The US NTSC Color Standard often comes in for criticism but I reckon that's unfair given it was the first. Moreover, it has one significant advantage over the other two and that is its 60 Hz frame rate (the others being 50 Hz). I noticed the difference this makes when years ago I first visited the US: almost my first perception of the country happened at Los Angeles airport when I noticed that the airport's monitors weren't flickering (which is a significant annoyance in 50 Hz systems)!

A final point: when considering TV encoding systems we cannot forget Nyquist and cohorts who made all that information-squeezing possible, similarly so Shannon whose brilliant ideas have gone into the development of the encoding schemes now used in our modems and digital audio and television systems.

It seems to me that advances in encoding techniques were essentially just as important as they they were in image sensor development. Both technologies are essential and integral parts of modern digital television, thus developments in both were of critical importance for DTV's development.

Incidentally, the first colour TV camera I examined close up was a huge and almost unmanageable beast made by RCA. It used three separate vidicons for the chroma channels and an image orthicon for the luminance. Whenever, I look at the camera in my smartphone I never cease to be amazed at the progress we've made in these technologies over the past 50 or so years.

Re: PAL Colour Recovery from black-and-white ‘telerecordings’ (2008)

#47
post #2

Black&White-tv was almost HD, 625x625. Then they added 3Mhz color-carrier in 1966 and it was 300x300 with this color-furze on top. This sucked so much. There was nothing I wanted see in living color. Especially winter-sports were mostly BW. I remember that color movies sucked also in 1950s. Technicolor has annoying fuzziness around objects. See Wizard of Oz.

"Technicolor has annoying fuzziness around objects. See Wizard of Oz."

This happens with Technicolor only when it's processed badly and the registration isn't done with sufficient precision. I agree, this has happened from time to time.

Moreover, you also have to consider where the source material for the Technicolor process originated from. Tri-separated B&W negatives were used in the late 1930s, Wizard of Oz being one and the other major notable Gone With The Wind.

Prints from tri-separations can be quite excellent, in fact brilliant as the colour can be precisely adjusted. Also colour 'compromises' don't have to be made in the printing as is intrinsically the case with film that use colour couplers - Eastmancolor (Eastman color negative, its internegative and theatre release/print stock) to name just a few.

(Colour couplers in film emulsions are at best compromises as they have to be compatible with the processing chemistry and many of the best colour dyes and pigments are not. Processes that do not use colour couplers such as Kodachrome and Technicolor are much superior in this regard as stable dyes with the correct (or best) colour can be used. Colour couplers also lower the resolution of an emulsion although in many modern emulsions this isn't a significant problem.)

Nevertheless, if tri-separated B&W originals are used after being stored a long time then shrinkage differences in the three negatives can pose printing/registration issues.

It would be interesting to know the source of your Wizard of Oz, - as some years back the DVD version took this into account when the film was remastered. Every frame of the tri-separated B&W printing masters was resized to ensure its geometry was identical to all others. I've seen that remastered copy and its registration is excellent.

Incidentally, the very last version of the Technicolor processes of the 1950s was the best colour film system for movies ever devised before they went digital. However, one needs to bear in mind that many so-called Technicolor films are only hybrids, as they use Eastmancolor (or other) film stock for both the original source and for later dupes from earlier Technicolor theatre release prints. They, along with multigeneration copies, often create many issues including low (fuzzy) resolution and muddy cross-colour effects.

When making a claim like you have it's imperative you first check a film's manufacturing/printing methods. Tracing its manufacturing provenance is absolutely essential.

Edit: FYI, pre-WWII B&W film emulsions as used in the Wizard of Oz were never as grain-free or as sharp as modern-day equivalents are. You also need to ensure that you aren't drawing any comparison to these much newer products. The Technicolor process should not be blamed for limitations in the source material.

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