German digital signage ban prompts confusion • Hacker News Board

Re: German digital signage ban prompts confusion

#41

Post by martin_a » Fri, Aug 26, 2022, 9:32 AM UTC

louwrentius wrote: post #26

jansan wrote: post #13

This is a cult. Government is implementing micromanaging measure which may reduce energy consumtion by 1%, but on the other hand they do not want to extend the lifetime of nuclear reactors for a few years to help transition, because those 3% that they contribute are not worth it.

That 1% would really matter a lot so that’s an argument in favor. All the smaller things add up too. Nuclear is back on the table in Germany afaik. Not sure if they really will backtrack, but even if they mess up the nuclear thing, this signage decision is 100% a good thing.

> Nuclear is back on the table in Germany afaik.

Not really, no. Just some irrelevant talk, not even the power companies want to keep those things running.

Re: German digital signage ban prompts confusion

#42

Post by defrost » Fri, Aug 26, 2022, 9:32 AM UTC

peaslock wrote: post #20

How much electricity can plausibly be saved this way? And how does that compare to the energy required to reprogram and possibly renew all these signs?

A lot.

A coder peddling the entire time required to adjust the timing would be lucky to power a single billboard for a night.

Re: German digital signage ban prompts confusion

#43

Post by ErneX » Fri, Aug 26, 2022, 9:33 AM UTC

hnbad wrote: post #22

The headline is a bit confusing. Looking at the article, the regulation was written in Germany but is passed by the EU (suggesting this will not only affect Germany but also other EU member countries that implement it?) and it is not just about "digital signage" but all illuminted displays in public spaces that aren't necessary for regulating traffic. So this would likely also affect neon signs and illuminated non-di…

Exactly, in Spain the mandate for shops to turn off lights from 10pm started August 10th

Re: German digital signage ban prompts confusion

#44

Post by peaslock » Fri, Aug 26, 2022, 9:33 AM UTC

martin_a wrote: post #38

peaslock wrote: post #20

How much electricity can plausibly be saved this way? And how does that compare to the energy required to reprogram and possibly renew all these signs?

> How much electricity can plausibly be saved this way? About third of what was used before. > And how does that compare to the energy required to reprogram and possibly renew all these signs? That's cost of doing business and a one-time thing.

> About third of what was used before.

How much is that as a fraction of the total electricity consumption?

Re: German digital signage ban prompts confusion

#45

Post by mschuster91 » Fri, Aug 26, 2022, 9:33 AM UTC

yodelshady wrote: post #25

tpmx wrote: post #6

Quoted post unavailable.

Also Germany: repoens , I believe approx. 8 GW, coal plants. https://www.forbes.com/sites/juliecoleman/2022/07/08/germany... I'm sorry, but this is hearfelt: the German greens are climate criminals . And they were fully warned of exactly this situation decades ago, so no, they have zero "circumstances forced our hand" defence. You knew , and you chose to burn coal anyway .

> I'm sorry, but this is hearfelt: the German greens are climate criminals. And they were fully warned of exactly this situation decades ago, so no, they have zero "circumstances forced our hand" defence.

The Greens have not been in government for the last sixteen years. It was the conservative governments under Merkel and particularly the environment and later economy minister Altmaier who openly celebrated reducing buildout of solar power [1].

As for nuclear power: any talk about lengthening their operation is utter madness. There are no fuel rods and the reactors haven't had their security checkups because they were scheduled to be shut down - and just look at France just how catastrophic nuclear power actually is (ETA: I substantially detailed that in a daughter comment, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32605337).

The government has little other choice than to keep the coal burners running at this point, as the Merkel governments have done everything in their power to hinder renewable energy buildout, and the Bavarian CSU has sabotaged cross-country high voltage power transmission lines.

[1] https://www.n-tv.de/politik/Einbruch-bei-der-Photovoltaik-ar...

Re: German digital signage ban prompts confusion

#46

Post by avian » Fri, Aug 26, 2022, 9:34 AM UTC

sva_ wrote: post #9

brnt wrote: post #4

This will chiefly affect commercial billboards and the like, which should not be even allowed to ever emit light (or exist) IMNSHO.

For real, when they installed some of these ultra bright billboards by the street, I'd get blinded by them as I waited at the traffic light, especially on shorter winter days. The operator claimed they don't run them in the dark, but that was definitely a lie.

> The operator claimed they don't run them in the dark

I think the following progression of events leads to many of those blindingly bright digital signs at night:

Original sign conforms with regulations and comes with a light sensor to dynamically adjust brightness. It's bright during the day, dim during the night.

After a few months the light sensors gets gunked up with dirt. Display now thinks its night all the time. It's way too dim to see in daylight.

People running the display don't like that you can't read their ads during the day. They realize that cleaning the sensor every X days will be expensive, so they get someone to defeat the light sensor altogether and get the display to run at full brightness all the time.

Result is a sign that's still making money during those valuable rush-hour traffic times, at the cost of beaming deathrays into driver's eyeballs at night.

Re: German digital signage ban prompts confusion

#47

Post by adrianN » Fri, Aug 26, 2022, 9:35 AM UTC

turing_complete wrote: post #23

TomK32 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bigger problems in Germany are the lack of big power lines between the North and South and of course the reluctance to build more wind energy. Especially Bavaria has been shooting its own feet several times, even built a gas power station a few years back and now it's in a bit of a panic...

You cannot power a country with wind power alone. Even if you want to build wind turbines, you need nuclear, gas, or coal to back them up.

No, but you can power something like 70% of a country with wind power alone. Add in some solar and a few hours worth of storage and you can go 90+%. Add a few days of storage and you reach two nines. A few weeks for more nines.

Re: German digital signage ban prompts confusion

#48

Post by tlocke » Fri, Aug 26, 2022, 9:35 AM UTC

turing_complete wrote: post #23

TomK32 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bigger problems in Germany are the lack of big power lines between the North and South and of course the reluctance to build more wind energy. Especially Bavaria has been shooting its own feet several times, even built a gas power station a few years back and now it's in a bit of a panic...

You cannot power a country with wind power alone. Even if you want to build wind turbines, you need nuclear, gas, or coal to back them up.

If you build enough renewables, then there comes a point when at times you're generating more than is needed immediately. That surplus electricity can be used to make hydrogen gas by electrolysing water. The gas can be stored indefinitely and burned to generate electricity when needed. So with enough renewables, no fossil fuels are needed.