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The gathering crisis in the UK

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Re: The gathering crisis in the UK

#41

Post by throwyawayyyy »

kspacewalk2 wrote: post #32
WaxProlix wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's something wild going on there, too. Leaked documents have shown how their best chance at real Labour-style governance (Corbyn) was intentionally smeared from within as an antisemite, among other things, in order to torpedo his popularity. Instead, Labour has the hugely ineffectual Tory-esque Keir Starmer now. Feels very much like a managed opposition.

Corbyn seems to have done a fine enough job smearing himself over his long and illustrious career of far-left populism and terrorism apologia. His campaign signed up a lot of fly-by-night party members and was successful in getting him elected party leader, but convincing the general public was far more difficult. (Part of the answer to why Labour has been out of power for 13 years is the Corbyn disaster, it explains…

There's an alternate history in which it was David Miliband who became Labour leader, not his brother. Who knows of course, but there's a decent chance it would have prevented the disaster of Brexit (and the related disaster, for Labour and the country, of Corbyn).

Re: The gathering crisis in the UK

#42

Post by swader999 »

Victerius wrote: post #38
swader999 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Central planning across a large geography failed miserably and killed hundreds of millions in the 20th century. I'll take hundreds of localized solutions/experiments any day thanks.

The United States government has been extremely successful as the central point of authority of the 50 states. Central planning has been extremely successful in lifting hundreds of millions of people out of poverty in China, and making China a superpower. And, I shall add, a superpower that's now remained in existence (73 years) longer than the Soviet Union did (70 years). I'm all for local experimentation, but not f…

China has enjoyed a huge trade imbalance from a one sided take on globalization. Should we all strive for China's approach to the climate crisis? Should we ask the 12 million Uyghurs how things are going?

Re: The gathering crisis in the UK

#43

Post by willyt »

pphysch wrote: post #39
api wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both things can be true to varying degrees. Russian propaganda exists but it wouldn't be nearly as effective if it weren't for our elite fumbling so badly.

Yes, every important organization (nation, religion, corporation) does PR. Its normal and healthy to have some public image management when competitors may try to destroy your image for their own gain. This is a far cry from having a coordinated disinformation campaign to cause political instability in a foreign country. The evidence of Russia doing this to any effect with Trump or Brexit is extremely scant and circu…

Wasn't one of the main leave campaign organisations (Leave.EU?) funded by Aaron Banks who recently lost a libel action against a newspaper that accused him of receiving funds to pay for this from the KGB?

EDIT: found a source https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61782578

Re: The gathering crisis in the UK

#44

Post by colechristensen »

ceeplusplus wrote: post #26
UncleOxidant wrote: post #5

"Brexit has delivered some deregulation, though: notably, the Conservative government ditched EU standards on effluent discharges, resulting in the (private) water companies discharging raw sewage into almost every river, and the seas around the UK coastline. So it is no longer safe to swim in UK waters." Holy crap! "the Bank of England are forecasting 13% inflation towards the end of the year." And we thought things…

> And we thought things were bad in the US. That inflation is mostly driven by energy costs, which are a direct result of European policy failures on nuclear and fossil fuels. The US is mostly a net neutral producer/consumer of fossil fuels and energy, which is why it's insulated from the impacts of Russia cutting off gas.

Yup. A big thing in past decades was energy independence. The US actually achieved it but it didn't get the attention that griping about not having it got.

Re: The gathering crisis in the UK

#45

Post by klelatti »

I think Brexit has allowed a sort of nihilism to creep into U.K. politics. If you can live with a policy that has such a demonstrable adverse effect on the economy and so many other things then why worry about the impact of other policies.

The standard approach for the government now seems to be to look for short term wins in the tabloids and ignore the long term.

And this is on top of the huge distraction that Brexit has been.

Re: The gathering crisis in the UK

#46

Post by damagednoob »

PaulHoule wrote: post #3

It's a bit like blaming the Democrats for the political crisis in the US but I have to ask "what the hell is wrong with Labor?" The Tories have dominated politics in the UK since the later 1970s except for the Blair administration, and Blair was an honorary Tory.

A couple of things:

Tories have done well to court the people that show up at the polls with things like keeping the Triple-Lock pension guarantee[1].

Like the Democrats, Labour's demographics have started to shift more to the well-educated (though I suspect this will swing back massively, come the next election). This alienated their traditional working class base who care more about their own economic realities than whatever social crusade is the flavour of the week.

Young Labour went out of their way to paint pro-Brexiters as racists and bigots. The dirty secret is that even Corbyn has been a long time Euro-sceptic. Because of the in-fighting on the correct position, Labour didn't take a hard stance on Brexit until very close to the end, IIRC. At which point, anti-Brexit votes were being siphoned off by the Liberal Democrats, with pro-Brexit votes going to the Tories.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Pension_(United_Kingdom)...

Re: The gathering crisis in the UK

#47

Post by Lendal »

throxaway wrote: post #19

I think when discussing this, it should be recognised that there is ample evidence that Russia has worked last several years to undermine the stability of western democracies. Brexit vote and resulting chaos being one glaring result. I am suggesting that we are just starting to understand the magnitude in which Russia has been able to cause havoc in the west by taking advantage of our freedoms. Link: https://en.m.wik…

I don't think "freedom" is to blame. Freedom in varying degrees has been around for a long time, and attempts to exploit it failed to produce results for the enemies of freedom. They have however recently identified a weakness, (not freedom) and have exploited it to devastating effect. If we continue to fail to identify and make repairs to that weakness, well then that's on us and we deserve what we get.

Re: The gathering crisis in the UK

#48

Post by mgoldstein5 »

Victerius wrote: post #14
reb wrote: post #4

It’s eerie how similar the issues facing western nations are and how intractable the disagreements over solutions have become. Desperate balkanization coming for many, I think.

Or an opportunity for a powerful figure to take power by force and rule over all. I'm not for dictatorships, but we already have too many countries in the world. And provinces and states within these countries. Too many little fiefdoms. Too many wannabe lords. Too many presidents, premiers, prime ministers, governors, chancellors, kings, emperors. Too many parliaments, congresses, too many senators, deputies, represe…

There’s nothing wrong with local autonomy, why should I be ruled by people who don’t share my values thousands of miles away.

Re: The gathering crisis in the UK

#49

Post by rayiner »

reb wrote: post #4

It’s eerie how similar the issues facing western nations are and how intractable the disagreements over solutions have become. Desperate balkanization coming for many, I think.

What’s remarkable is that everyone recognizes that “the disagreements over solutions have become” “intractable” but thinks the solution is to handle more things at the federal/EU/UN level.

Re: The gathering crisis in the UK

#50

Post by mikeiz404 »

ceeplusplus wrote: post #26
UncleOxidant wrote: post #5

"Brexit has delivered some deregulation, though: notably, the Conservative government ditched EU standards on effluent discharges, resulting in the (private) water companies discharging raw sewage into almost every river, and the seas around the UK coastline. So it is no longer safe to swim in UK waters." Holy crap! "the Bank of England are forecasting 13% inflation towards the end of the year." And we thought things…

> And we thought things were bad in the US. That inflation is mostly driven by energy costs, which are a direct result of European policy failures on nuclear and fossil fuels. The US is mostly a net neutral producer/consumer of fossil fuels and energy, which is why it's insulated from the impacts of Russia cutting off gas.

From an energy security standpoint being net neutral or better is good but is the US insulated from fossil fuel prices?

From a market perspective I would have thought a decrease in supply (say sanctions on Russian oil) would up the price of oil. This would effect domestic oil prices as well since either the domestic producers also participate globally or other sources of oil available domestically are also available globally (higher global price would decrease domestic supply and thus increase domestic price).

If domestic policies are put in place which limit access to the global market then that would change things.

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