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BART’s excursion fare: Agency earns millions from passengers not riding trains

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Re: BART’s excursion fare: Agency earns millions from passengers not riding trains

#41

Post by bryanrasmussen »

magila wrote: post #37
jonas21 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until recently, BART used magstripe tickets where all information was stored on the ticket itself. It might not have been possible to implement a time window with that. That doesn't explain why they didn't add this when migrating to the Clipper card, but I feel like "nobody thought to change it" or "we wanted to reduce risk by not introducing changes while migrating" seem like more likely explanations than malice.

I wouldn't call it malice. It's simply a rational decision. BART makes more money with the fee than without, so absent political pressure to discontinue it why would they? Also, Clipper cards have been around many years. They aren't a recent addition to BART.

>I wouldn't call it malice. It's simply a rational decision. BART makes more money with the fee than without

by taking money from those weaker than it, since it is a large well financed organization and the people riding it will not be equipped to fight it (legally), that's malicious.

Re: BART’s excursion fare: Agency earns millions from passengers not riding trains

#42

Post by Symbiote »

rahimnathwani wrote: post #26
tialaramex wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing that surprised early Oyster users on LU was that the new system knew about routes. If you live in Zone 3 and you travel to a Zone 3 station on the far side of London, you could buy a weekly paper ticket that's not valid in Zone 1, and it'd let you in (in Zone 3 it's valid) and out (in Zone 3 again, it's valid) despite your train passing straight through Zone 1. However after switching to Oyster weekly the c…

> presumably in most cases without realising I doubt this. Even as a child I knew that a travelcard must be valid for all the zones you travel through. Of course, if challenged, someone knowingly cheating would claim they didn't realise. > you tap pink validators at key interchanges > you'd need to pass through to do your slower > and less central route avoiding Zone 1" Wow! I had no idea this was a thing. I moved aw…

It was introduced on 6 September 2009: https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2009/septem...

I used this frequently at some point, but it is now so long ago I can't remember where. Especially with many London Overground routes, it's not necessarily slower.

Re: BART’s excursion fare: Agency earns millions from passengers not riding trains

#43

Post by [deleted] »

magila wrote: post #37
jonas21 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until recently, BART used magstripe tickets where all information was stored on the ticket itself. It might not have been possible to implement a time window with that. That doesn't explain why they didn't add this when migrating to the Clipper card, but I feel like "nobody thought to change it" or "we wanted to reduce risk by not introducing changes while migrating" seem like more likely explanations than malice.

I wouldn't call it malice. It's simply a rational decision. BART makes more money with the fee than without, so absent political pressure to discontinue it why would they? Also, Clipper cards have been around many years. They aren't a recent addition to BART.

[deleted]

Re: BART’s excursion fare: Agency earns millions from passengers not riding trains

#44

Post by pirocks »

alistairSH wrote: post #31
geebee wrote: post #24

Isn't there a hack/scam where you could (in the absence of a same-station charge) pay less or nothing to ride bart? I remember people talking bout this ages ago (like, 20 years ago). You keep two bart cards going, and use the same one to enter and leave the same station. If there's a same-station charge, you can use it to enter/leave a nearby station, avoiding the higher fee for longer trips. Is there a possibility t…

Wouldn't a time check fix this? Enter/leave within 10 minutes, no charge. Enter/leave outside 10 min window, charge the exclusion fee.

Tap/swipe in with one card, tap swipe out with the same card but don't actually leave. Hand the card to your buddy who swipes in and enters with you. Do the same thing on exit. You can then have as many people as you want travel for the cost of one.

Re: BART’s excursion fare: Agency earns millions from passengers not riding trains

#45

Post by sowbug »

When I was a kid and tried to figure out why this fare/penalty existed, I guessed it was to compensate for people who traveled somewhere to pick up an item from a friend who'd meet them at the station and hand it through the gate to them, and then they'd go back home, all without leaving the station. It all seemed like an intricate solution to a small problem.

Re: BART’s excursion fare: Agency earns millions from passengers not riding trains

#46

Post by adrianmonk »

danans wrote: post #5

You can go to the kiosk at any BART station and the station attendant will put a sticker on your card to indicate that you are leaving via the same station you entered and allow you to exit via the emergency doors, therefore not incurring the excursion fare. This is in case you decide not to take the train, or forgot something at home. I suspect the excursion fare today is trying to disincentivize the use of the trai…

Also, it's possible (if unusual) to get value out of traveling within the BART system.

For example, suppose you have a nice camera you want to sell to a friend. They live in Millbrae and commute to SF by BART. You live in north San Jose.

So you agree to meet them on their way home from work, at 6pm right outside the Powell Street station. That's $16.80 for your Berryessa to Powell Street round trip.

But what if you met inside the station instead? For your purposes, that's fine too. You can hand them the camera in either place. Should that trip be free because you enter and leave the BART system at Berryessa? I would say no, because getting to SF was valuable to you, plus you used a seat on two BART trains.

Re: BART’s excursion fare: Agency earns millions from passengers not riding trains

#48

Post by nrp »

abeppu wrote: post #32

A related really dumb thing is that in general, the signs in BART which indicate the time until the next train on a given line are not visible from outside the fare zone. This is especially relevant in parts of downtown SF, where you could take BART or Muni to go up or down market, and if there's a delay on one, you might quite reasonably want to switch to another. The added time to find the station agent and get an…

I think you mean the signs are “only” visible in the fare zone. The canopy improvements project will add signs at the entrances showing times for the stations in SF soon: https://www.bart.gov/about/planning/sfentrances

Re: BART’s excursion fare: Agency earns millions from passengers not riding trains

#49

Post by Gibbon1 »

tialaramex wrote: post #23
rahimnathwani wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The system will have a record of you entering at one station, but no record of an exit. Will that result in a charge or other problem? (On the London Underground, it would result in a charge, as the system is designed to assume you exited somewhere but somehow managed to leave without tapping out.)

One thing that surprised early Oyster users on LU was that the new system knew about routes. If you live in Zone 3 and you travel to a Zone 3 station on the far side of London, you could buy a weekly paper ticket that's not valid in Zone 1, and it'd let you in (in Zone 3 it's valid) and out (in Zone 3 again, it's valid) despite your train passing straight through Zone 1. However after switching to Oyster weekly the c…

You know what? You've made a good argument to scrap the fair machines and make public transit free.

Re: BART’s excursion fare: Agency earns millions from passengers not riding trains

#50

Post by [deleted] »

adrianmonk wrote: post #46
danans wrote: post #5

You can go to the kiosk at any BART station and the station attendant will put a sticker on your card to indicate that you are leaving via the same station you entered and allow you to exit via the emergency doors, therefore not incurring the excursion fare. This is in case you decide not to take the train, or forgot something at home. I suspect the excursion fare today is trying to disincentivize the use of the trai…

Also, it's possible (if unusual) to get value out of traveling within the BART system. For example, suppose you have a nice camera you want to sell to a friend. They live in Millbrae and commute to SF by BART. You live in north San Jose. So you agree to meet them on their way home from work, at 6pm right outside the Powell Street station. That's $16.80 for your Berryessa to Powell Street round trip. But what if you m…

[deleted]
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