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On “A Canticle for Leibowitz”

loukidelis.com

41–50 of 142 posts

Re: On “A Canticle for Leibowitz”

#41
post #26

In the early 90s, I read all of the Hugo winners at the time. A Canticle for Leibowitz was one of my favorites. A few years later, it was one of the three major influences we used when making the original Fallout (along with Road Warrior and City of Lost Children).

  > "A few years later, it was one of the three major influences we used when making the original Fallout (along with Road Warrior and City of Lost Children)."
No wonder I got crazy "Canticle" vibes from the Brotherhood when playing Fallout.

Re: On “A Canticle for Leibowitz”

#42
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you actually measure the world, however, then by almost any measure things are better now than they have been in the past (two notable exceptions are climate change and democracy vs autocracy). Or US life expectancy, or healthcare/childcare/university costs (in the US), or homicides (in the US), or suicides, or population growth (arguably a good thing for climate change, but most people aren't choosing to put of…

The whole better off trope has been popularized by people like Hans Rosling in books like Factfulness. You can read reviews from experts to figure out what's wrong with it. But I've often seen these arguments in the context of 'everything is going great, there's nothing to worry about' with arguments such as 'we had the most people lifted out of poverty ever in history'. In my view that's just capitalist koolaid to k…

While I don’t disagree with the negatives here unless you’ve experienced extreme poverty saying it’s “capitalist koolaid” sounds frankly a little naive. These are billions of people who aren’t struggling to do basic things like drink water and eat, shelter themselves and their family, etc, not just at a personal level but at a national level. The change in the world from nearly everyone in that state to today where almost everyone isn’t is a success.

But it might also be our doom.

I guess we shall see. I wager we will make it though.

Re: On “A Canticle for Leibowitz”

#43
post #26

In the early 90s, I read all of the Hugo winners at the time. A Canticle for Leibowitz was one of my favorites. A few years later, it was one of the three major influences we used when making the original Fallout (along with Road Warrior and City of Lost Children).

I'm doing the Hugo list now!

Just about at the end of Speaker for the Dead. A Canticle for Leibowitz was the first ones that I really enjoyed. Ender's Game and Speaker for the Dead are up there too but my absolute favorite so far is Dreamsnake.

I'm really annoyed at myself for not reviewing or at least jotting down some notes about the books as I've finished them. I remember liking Canticle a lot but I would be hard pressed to summarize it without some help.

Re: On “A Canticle for Leibowitz”

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you actually measure the world, however, then by almost any measure things are better now than they have been in the past (two notable exceptions are climate change and democracy vs autocracy). Or US life expectancy, or healthcare/childcare/university costs (in the US), or homicides (in the US), or suicides, or population growth (arguably a good thing for climate change, but most people aren't choosing to put of…

Declining population growth is in all ways a positive. Rising population is a good thing to essentially linearly improve nominal GDP, but does little to improve per capita GDP. Other than that nominal GDP bump I struggle to see any positive associated with population growth. Most people put off having kids because, effectively, people are living much longer and it’s economically easier to have kids older. Effective c…

I disagree - declining population is a disaster that only ends in a country becoming poor. As you allude to in your response, sub-replacement-rate fertility is what drives population decline, so declining populations are always ageing populations. The economics of ageing populations don't work for obvious reasons - as people get older they need more care and produce less, and with fewer workers to provide that care, the care becomes more expensive in ways that governments never provisioned for (see Japan and many countries in Western Europe for good examples of this in practice).

In the longer term this depresses GDP per capita as resources have to be diverted from productive industries like high-tech manufacturing into extremely unproductive industries like aged care. Again, Japan and many Western European countries provide good examples of this in practice. Finally, as the reality of the broader economic decline sets in, second order effects start to take hold like brain drain - as young workers see higher wages working in more productive economies, they decide to leave, worsening the population pyramid and depriving the government of precious tax revenue needed to pay for aged care. (Japan and many Western European countries are sadly, again, examples of this phenomenon).

The short term effects you're describing of nominal GDP rising and per capita GDP falling is only true when populations are growing through bad immigration policy, which is what we commonly see in the US for example. Growing population organically and sustainably, or through productive immigration that targets gaps in the country's labor force, should never have that effect as the new member of the population should eventually increase GDP by more than the average existing worker today.

At an individual rather than population level of course, having fewer or no children is easier, which is why people are doing it. But this describes a local optimum only, while the true optimum is population growth.

Re: On “A Canticle for Leibowitz”

#45
I really enjoyed the book. I’m almost always down for some sci-fi dystopia, and as a religious person I enjoyed this particular lens on it.

A couple I highly recommend from another Catholic author, The Lord of the World, and Dawn of All, by Robert Hugh Benson.

Those two are more early 20th century Catholicism in worldview, which I particularly enjoyed.

Re: On “A Canticle for Leibowitz”

#46
post #12

But we didn’t blow ourselves back to the stone age in the 50s and 60s. This fate turned out to be not quite as inevitable as “A Canticle” would seem to suggest. Yet evidence pointing to this outcome was all around us during the Cold War, right up to the late 1980s. Development of new and more potent weapons. Serious accidents or near accidents - one crazy one I remember hearing about was one side almost launching a r…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Chrome_Dome Crazy times. 1960 - 1968 The United States flew nuclear armed bombers to the borders of the USSR 24 hours a day. Imagine if 'insert country name' flew armed bombers to the border of 'insert western country name' every day in 2022.

Not to get you nervous, but the Russians run bombers to the airspace of Alaska all the time.

US jets intercept and turn them around.

It's the expensive version of the border crossings between India & Pakistan

Re: On “A Canticle for Leibowitz”

#47
post #26

In the early 90s, I read all of the Hugo winners at the time. A Canticle for Leibowitz was one of my favorites. A few years later, it was one of the three major influences we used when making the original Fallout (along with Road Warrior and City of Lost Children).

Thank you for City of Lost Children. Just ... thank you :)

Re: On “A Canticle for Leibowitz”

#48
I tried reading "A Canticle for Leibowitz” recently.

Didn't love it. Not alot really happened in it.

It felt like a response/commentary to the sort of apocalypse that was envisaged in the 1980's, like nuclear war. I feel like there's a much more sophisticated post apocalyptic vision of the future now.

As an alternative, I loved "The Road" - now there's a really great post apocalyptic scifi.

Re: On “A Canticle for Leibowitz”

#49

I really enjoyed the book. I’m almost always down for some sci-fi dystopia, and as a religious person I enjoyed this particular lens on it. A couple I highly recommend from another Catholic author, The Lord of the World, and Dawn of All, by Robert Hugh Benson. Those two are more early 20th century Catholicism in worldview, which I particularly enjoyed.

Not quite a dystopia, but of you (like me) also loved those books, then a highly recommend CS Lewis' Space Trilogy. One of my favourite series of all time, especially the last one.
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