“No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels
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Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels
#42My psychologist tells me that in his profession there is a significant gulf emerging between the ones who feel the prescribing is justified, and the ones (like him) with significant concerns: 1. they prescribe both boosters, and inhibitors, to treat the same symptoms. This suggests the aetiology of disease here, is not well defined by a single behaviour because the same symptom (depression, anxiety) is responsive in…
"Chemical imbalance" isn't actually taught as the root cause of depression. I suspect your psychologist might be overestimating their own knowledge of a different field (psychiatrist formally study these systems and medications, psychologists do not) and underestimating the amount of research being performed in this field.
Regardless, these drugs don't really work as "boosters" like commonly thought. It's better to think of them as modulators. In fact, in conditions like anxiety SSRIs are well-known to actually reduce serotonin transmission in certain areas of the brain. The research has diverged quite a bit from the simple marketing-material models that a lot of people have about these drugs.
The purpose of the drugs is to induce changes that result in positive downstream effects. It's not actually a contradiction that enhancing and inhibiting certain receptors could result in similar downstream effects. For example, a number of receptors in your brain will downregulate in response to both agonists and antagonists, even though they have opposite direct effects. Your psychologist's understanding of this topic is deeply flawed.
> 2. the drugs were tested inadequately across race, age, weight, sex.
SSRIs have been in widespread use since the 80s and tricyclics since the 50s. At this point, the idea that we haven't tested enough or that we haven't collected enough data is just a strawman argument proposed by people with impossibly high standards. I suspect no amount of testing would actually satisfy someone proposing this argument for drugs that have been studied for this long.
> 3. the drugs appear to be best applied for as brief time as possible but are routinely being prescribed for extended periods, and demand de-habituation and great care with withdrawal
It doesn't make sense to make blanket statements about "the drugs" when psychiatric drugs differ widely in this regard. Benzodiazepines should absolutely be prescribed for brief periods and this is reflected in their status as controlled substances and all of the prescribing literature. There are some doctors who ignore this advice and overprescribe, of course, but they are going counter to standard practice.
On the other hand, medications like SSRIs can actually take weeks or months to reach full effect and many patients unnecessarily relapse by quitting them early.
I'd be cautious of taking advice from anyone who makes blanket statements about "the drugs". This is bordering on uninformed anti-psychiatry.
> 4. almost all successful uses of the drugs are accompanied by CBT and like processes
The most successful uses of SSRIs are accompanied by therapy. However, we have plenty of studies where SSRIs are prescribed without any accompanying therapy and a positive result is still seen. If you're suggesting that the therapy is actually doing 100% of the work, that's easily disproven by the studies that test all combination (placebo, therapy alone, SSRI alone, therapy + SSRI).
I'd recommend getting your psychiatry advice from actual psychiatrists. The number of misunderstandings and mistruths in what you've relayed here is quite high.
Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels
#43I have a completely unscientific, subjective theory that some significant portion of depression in the population as a whole is caused by the economic circumstances that some people live in. Things like being trapped in a dead end job to keep healthcare benefits in the USA, living in a never ending treadmill of debt.
Or as the Unabomber said, "Imagine a society that subjects people to conditions that make them terribly unhappy then gives them the drugs to take away their unhappiness. Science fiction? It is already happening to some extent in our own society. Instead of removing the conditions that make people depressed modern society gives them antidepressant drugs. In effect antidepressants are a means of modifying an individual's internal state in such a way as to enable him to tolerate social conditions that he would otherwise find intolerable."
I think you're right. The problem is, this is the only life most of us have lived, and so we cannot imagine it otherwise, like a fish who cannot conceive of a world above water, or even that water is the medium surrounding it. If our entire society is causing this, then what can we do? Wage slavery, oligarchy, attention theft by tech companies, disintegration of community from various causes. Life for so many people is crawling through glass Monday through Friday, then getting shitfaced on the weekend. Is that happiness? How do we escape?
Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels
#44I have a completely unscientific, subjective theory that some significant portion of depression in the population as a whole is caused by the economic circumstances that some people live in. Things like being trapped in a dead end job to keep healthcare benefits in the USA, living in a never ending treadmill of debt.
We have it way better than almost any period in history and are profoundly unhappy. Also, we always like to think we will be happy “once I have…X” and then we get X and say well actually what I need is Y. Most unhappiness is driven by vanity and desire (a bargain you make with yourself where you chose to be unhappy until you get something) to be better than our peers. Until you can be content with nothing you wont be…
I don't think people in concentration camps are happy.
Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels
#45Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels
#46Earlier quoted context omitted.
We have it way better than almost any period in history and are profoundly unhappy. Also, we always like to think we will be happy “once I have…X” and then we get X and say well actually what I need is Y. Most unhappiness is driven by vanity and desire (a bargain you make with yourself where you chose to be unhappy until you get something) to be better than our peers. Until you can be content with nothing you wont be…
> If people can be happy in concentration camps we can be happy in dead end office jobs. I don't think people in concentration camps are happy.
Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels
#47I have a completely unscientific, subjective theory that some significant portion of depression in the population as a whole is caused by the economic circumstances that some people live in. Things like being trapped in a dead end job to keep healthcare benefits in the USA, living in a never ending treadmill of debt.
Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels
#48Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels
#49SSRIs raise extra-synaptic serotonin levels within the first hour of taking them. However, their efficacy against depression takes weeks or even months to manifest. We've known this for decades, and as a result the "chemical imbalance" theory of depression hasn't been a real contender in depression research for a long, long time. The key thing to understand is that serotonin levels don't have to be low for SSRIs to i…
Hence the first S and the I in SSRI. A filter in certain areas increases other areas. Doesn't change overall values.
The first "S" is for selective, meaning they have minimal affinities beyond the serotonin transporter.