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Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

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Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#41

Post by wmf »

twblalock wrote: post #30
lwswl wrote: post #22

I believe there are certain large corporations(far larger then Harper Collins et al.) which would benefit from an enlarging of the domain of fair use around now. Those pockets are large, and the display of the dollar does more to sway Judges than any real interpretation of the law. It is safe to say that they will succeed in their (seemingly useless) endeavor.

> I believe there are certain large corporations(far larger then Harper Collins et al.) which would benefit from an enlarging of the domain of fair use around now. Who are those corporations and how would they benefit?

Tech is far larger than publishing and there's potentially more money to be made organizing/consuming the world's information than in owning it. Some people have been pointing this out for 20 years.

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#42

Post by TekMol »

rwmj wrote: post #12
TekMol wrote: post #8

I never understood how the IA can get away with copying all those websites and all their content as if copyright did not exist. Can anybody enlighten me how they have not been sued into oblivion and sit in prison already?

Browsers copy and store websites as part of their normal functioning. If you didn't want your website to be copied and stored then maybe it was better not to put it up in the first place? Anyway the IA will remove everything with a very simple, automated text file placed in the root directory.

So you say copyright does not apply to websites?

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#43

Post by yebyen »

throwk8s wrote: post #14
rwmj wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Browsers copy and store websites as part of their normal functioning. If you didn't want your website to be copied and stored then maybe it was better not to put it up in the first place? Anyway the IA will remove everything with a very simple, automated text file placed in the root directory.

> Anyway the IA will remove everything with a very simple, automated text file placed in the root directory. What if the site is simply gone, or now belongs to someone else who is not the owner of the archived content?

Then you can follow these steps:

https://www.joshualowcock.com/guide/how-to-delete-your-site-...

You'll need to prove that you are the owner of the archived content, or were the owner of the domain.

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#44

Post by CamperBob2 »

COGlory wrote: post #6

So...they didn't think the law should apply so they just decided to ignore it? What were they expecting? How can they possibly expect to win this lawsuit? I hate copyright with all my soul but this is just stupid. You can't just decide to take the law into your own hand. This is just a waste of money and effort.

So...they didn't think the law should apply so they just decided to ignore it?

(Shrug) That's why we're not stuck with a 55 MPH national highway speed limit, here in the US. When the law does not respect the people, the people will not respect the law.

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#45

Post by PragmaticPulp »

antiverse wrote: post #23

It's disappointing to hear, with the number of people here claiming how IA has run afoul of the copyright law, that it's an open-and-shut case and there is nothing more to discuss. I feel like the air of the hacker spirit on the website is greatly diminished when we take an ice-cold approach to a difficult problem like this. I for one commend them for doing a noble thing in a very turbulent time. We didn't know how t…

> I feel like the air of the hacker spirit on the website is greatly diminished when we take an ice-cold approach to a difficult problem like this.

That “hacker spirit” has put years of extremely valuable internet archives at risk for an extremely insignificant gain, all due to a legal issue that anyone could see coming from a mile away.

Hacker spirit and playing fast and loose with the rules might fly when you’re a fresh startup with nothing to lose. It’s just plain irresponsible when you start putting an established business at risk in ways that were trivially avoided.

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#46

Post by Beldin »

wmf wrote: post #11
samwillis wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, they should have reached out to the closed public libraries and come to an agreement where they lent out digital copies 1:1 of copies owned by closed libraries. It would have been an incredible initiative that could have become sustainable well past the pandemic.

they lent out digital copies 1:1 of copies owned by closed libraries That would probably have triggered the same lawsuit. You cannot rent digital copies of physical works no matter how much sense it makes.

It possibly could have, but the circumstances would be significantly different. They did not impose any restrictions this time. If they hadc dinner it as GP suggests, they could easily argue that they made a fair and honest effort to not let closures in the physical world affect library availability. This probably still runs counter to copyright law. Were thr IA to lose such a case, the reasonableness of the approach in the face of such extraordinary circumstances would provide ample impetus to revaluate copyright legislation. Unlike the current situation.

Basically: No one likes throwing the book at the heroes; if the bad guys force that, society may start rewriting the book.

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#47

Post by wmf »

antiverse wrote: post #23

It's disappointing to hear, with the number of people here claiming how IA has run afoul of the copyright law, that it's an open-and-shut case and there is nothing more to discuss. I feel like the air of the hacker spirit on the website is greatly diminished when we take an ice-cold approach to a difficult problem like this. I for one commend them for doing a noble thing in a very turbulent time. We didn't know how t…

I don't consider it an open-and-shut case, but they're putting the archive at risk and they may not have enough money to win and I don't want to donate money to their lawyers. I wouldn't have a problem if they spun off a separate organization for this so it didn't threaten the archive.

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#48

Post by themitigating »

Rebelgecko wrote: post #21

This is pretty much why I stopped donating to them, not like they'll miss the sporadic $50 they'd get from me. Getting sued is a pretty obvious result of their decision to ignore copyright laws. If they didn't realize that they'd be sued then they're hopelessly shortsighted (there's no "emergency" exemption to copyright laws, even if you can make the argument that morally there should be). If they did know that they'…

There are exceptions to copyright law: https://www.copyright.gov/fair-use/more-info.html

Maybe they're trying to set a legal precedent, which sounds great. I don't know why but I read your comment in such a negative tone.

"Rebel"gecko indeed

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#49

Post by samtho »

thomascgalvin wrote: post #18
metadat wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mission of preserving human culture is far more important than respecting rent-seeking copyright holders. At the end of the day, The Internet Archive has good intentions and is morally in the right. The time has come to consider changing the laws to allow for truly fair use, especially for physical items scanned to digital (e.g. books), old video games, and more. It's about selecting for the common good over the…

You're not wrong, but being morally right has nothing to do with winning a lawsuit.

Laws are only as meaningful as we allow them to be. If our elected representatives no longer represent the will of the people, they must be removed to preserve the integrity of our society. Often they are not, which is unfortunate.

Just look at the body of unelected officials that, as a whole, are hell-bent at dismantling precedents in the name of constitutionalism, allowing for states to pass inane laws restricting rights under the guise of morals.

There is cancer in our society and it begins with our swill laws that are selectively enforced, are never revisited, and likely do not reflect the will of the people, and ends with legislative incumbents that do not represent modern progressive values.

Re: Tell HN: Internet Archive is facing a Big 4 Publishers lawsuit

#50

Post by corrral »

annoyingnoob wrote: post #19
samwillis wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, they should have reached out to the closed public libraries and come to an agreement where they lent out digital copies 1:1 of copies owned by closed libraries. It would have been an incredible initiative that could have become sustainable well past the pandemic.

> they should have reached out to the closed public libraries How exactly?

Email? I expect managers of library systems were still checking their email even when their buildings were closed.
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