Is the United States Exceptional? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#41

Post by WalterBright » Fri, Jul 08, 2022, 10:08 PM UTC

stevenwoo wrote: post #31

ncmncm wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At issue, where "exceptionalism" is concerned, is not what we do for ourselves, but what we do for and to others. Domestic policies are domestic, and not germane.

Also The Declaration of Independence is more an aspirational document that has almost nothing to do with the Constitution when it comes to laws, because some pigs were more equal than others, i.e. slaves and native Americans and women could not vote, and we are still dealing with problems from those parts and the undemocratic minority rule enshrined in the Constitution.

As I noted, the problems in America can be traced to not following those principles. That doesn't make the principles wrong.

> undemocratic minority rule enshrined in the Constitution.

The purpose of that is to protect the underlying rights of equality, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

I.e. the sheep is protected from the two wolves voting on what's for dinner.

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#42

Post by betwixthewires » Fri, Jul 08, 2022, 10:08 PM UTC

karpierz wrote: post #26

WalterBright wrote: post #16

A nation founded on the principles of all men being created equal, along with inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is indeed exceptional. The results have been exceptional, too. The US does indeed have plenty of problems, but those problems are usually traceable to neglecting those founding principles.

> principles of all men being created equal, along with inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness Unless you're black. Or female. Or Asian. etc. Why does this founding myth persist?

America has failed in it's lofty ideal many times, yes, but every step of the way shows an almost irrational desire to continue to correct course and hopefully, eventually, achieve that goal. The abolition of slavery, universal suffrage, reparations to Japanese internment camp prisoners... America loudly and proudly celebrated our first black president not too long ago. That says something about our principles. It's not a myth, it's a fact.

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#43

Post by cat_plus_plus » Fri, Jul 08, 2022, 10:08 PM UTC

The missing part of the story is that US may be exceptional, but also very vulnerable right now. People keep saying "guns/abortions are my right" (with equal extremes from opponents), why should I compromise at all? Well, framers of constitution compromised quite a bit on things they believed in and that caused problem later, but it's only through compromise that the nation came to exist and it's only through continued compromise that it can continue. Otherwise if living in an exceptional country is not making anyone happy, even morally it's better to have 50 less exceptional countries where people can come to some understanding rather than fighting all the time.

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#44

Post by egKYzyXeIL » Fri, Jul 08, 2022, 10:09 PM UTC

srvmshr wrote: post #28

throwaway5959 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, now do positives.

Sure. The reasons where US shines & is able to draw talent is probably several of these: * US is absolutely the leader in innovation. No doubts about it. * Champion of democracy. The US political system & constitution has inspired a lot of other countries. Its a very immaculately drawn political system built on checks & balances * High degree of choices to an individual to shape his life * High degree of demographic…

I don't think it was intentional, but given the recent Roe v Wade controversy I find it amusing that your wrote "High degree of choices to an individual to shape _his_ life". Gave me a chuckle.

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#45

Post by srvmshr » Fri, Jul 08, 2022, 10:09 PM UTC

tester756 wrote: post #34

srvmshr wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. The reasons where US shines & is able to draw talent is probably several of these: * US is absolutely the leader in innovation. No doubts about it. * Champion of democracy. The US political system & constitution has inspired a lot of other countries. Its a very immaculately drawn political system built on checks & balances * High degree of choices to an individual to shape his life * High degree of demographic…

>High degree of demographic diversity. Why is it good? and for who?

A very homogeneous country like Japan (I could speak for that only, being a current resident), is generally inure to the culture of people around the world. Foreigners don't stick around long because they are like the thumb sticking out. One feels left out if not thick skinned enough.

In US, I always felt at home. There were people just like me - eating similar food, sharing different festivities, of same socioeconomic strata etc. Eventually inclusivity & diversity retains immigration. US (& UK as well) does better than most other developed countries

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#46

Post by ncmncm » Fri, Jul 08, 2022, 10:09 PM UTC

mikkergp wrote: post #32

ncmncm wrote: post #10

There are two ways one may interpret "American exceptionalism". The first is that, being a rich country and democratically elected, our standards for fair and ethical behavior are higher than others'. We can afford to be generous and to be kind. Our declaration of universal human rights means we stick up for rights not just in our own territory, but for all our human sisters and brothers, extending due process to all…

> but it seems notable that Russia copied the verbiage that US published in support of invading Iraq, when they invaded Ukraine. I don't think it is notable that Russia copied the verbiage of the US, this seems like a logical fallacy. Bad people will always quote the most powerful people to try and make a point, or try and weaken them. It doesn't mean it's good, it is just an irrelevant part of the argument.

You seem to miss the point that there was no legitimate justification for invading Iraq. We invaded Iraq because certain people temporarily in authority wanted to invade Iraq, for personal, petty, and cynical reasons.

Russians cribbing from that was obviously meant ironically. Missing that point is telling.

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#47

Post by aidenn0 » Fri, Jul 08, 2022, 10:10 PM UTC

andrewclunn wrote: post #3

I agree with the sentiment, but framing your argument by dunking on an Aaron Sorkin avatar is sort of low hanging fruit. I mean that'd be like "destroying Communism" by taking down North Korean state TV. Doesn't mean you're wrong, but nobody worth listening to ever saw these things as more than by-the-numbers propaganda.

As TFA mentions, the clip makes has regularly made the rounds on social media for years now. If this blog post can serve only as a single-link response to it, it has some purpose.

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#48

Post by mudlus » Fri, Jul 08, 2022, 10:10 PM UTC

Yes. It's one of the few countries where citizens are protected from the government. This means anyone can make huge mistakes, and it's viewed as immoral to stop them. Myopically, it drives a politics of fear and control ('Won't someone please think of the children [who we don't consider people with rights, so as to individually choose not to go to school, for example]'). Long term, America has provided more progress to the world in terms of ideas, technology, knowledge, than any other community in human history. It also means that they are free to make ideological mistakes, no one is embraced to say their opinion even if it's wrong. This is a Tradition of Criticism, and it extends to the West in general, but is exemplified by America (Hollywood, US media, etc). All progress comes from criticism. America is 'exceptional', but with that power comes great responsibility--something recent generations don't seem to want. So, giving up rights, puts the responsibility in some other's hand--an appeal to authority. This has lead to a great culture of pessimism. I hope that will end soon and more American's will be optimistic and proud of their responsibility to infinite knowledge growth through a Tradition of Criticism.

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#49

Post by the_lonely_road » Fri, Jul 08, 2022, 10:10 PM UTC

starkd wrote: post #13

mikkergp wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While this may be true originally or historically, I don’t think it’s what most people today mean colloquially when they say American Exceptionalism, and I think there’s a large group of people that agree more with the colloquial definition.

Yes, I understand that. But it's very different from its origins. When America was founded, it consisted of mostly farmers. Basic agriculture. It produced nothing extraodinary and in relation to other countries. Britain was the financial powerhouse of the world, and there were no monoliths present. I just wanted to point out how language has been distorted to make the notion of exceptionalism something that it is not…

Most humans were illiterate and had a small vocabulary consistently of only a tiny portion of their languages actual vocabulary. The modern world with its high literacy rates is exceptional. As a direct result many words have completely lost their meaning and in some cases even taken on opposite meaning to their original intention!

I believe this a direct result of people fighting to be accepted by the small elite that could read. Write a paper in the 1700’s using the phrase “literally famished” to mean you haven't eaten since lunch and you would be laughed out of the building. Write it now on Twitter and no one in your in group is going to call you out because they know what you mean and ‘sanctity’ of the language is much less important to them then social cohesiveness, if they even care at all.

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#50

Post by WalterBright » Fri, Jul 08, 2022, 10:10 PM UTC

karpierz wrote: post #26

WalterBright wrote: post #16

A nation founded on the principles of all men being created equal, along with inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is indeed exceptional. The results have been exceptional, too. The US does indeed have plenty of problems, but those problems are usually traceable to neglecting those founding principles.

> principles of all men being created equal, along with inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness Unless you're black. Or female. Or Asian. etc. Why does this founding myth persist?

It applies to Blacks, females, and Asians. Etc.