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America Is in Denial

theatlantic.com

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Re: America Is in Denial

#41

Post by Sharlin »

Skunkleton wrote: post #16
kory wrote: post #4

> Even as we watch the reservoirs and lakes of the West go dry, we keep watering our lawns, soaking our golf courses, and growing water-thirsty crops. Residential water use has plummeted in the west. Some areas, like vegas, use less water than the 70s, not accounting for population changes. Arizona is the second best residential water manager in the world behind Israel. Agriculture uses the lion's share of water and…

> Yet again blaming individuals' choices when large corporations are by far the largest global polluters. Corporations don’t exist. There are only individual people.

That argument would work much better if corporations weren't explicitly designated legal persons for various purposes related to contracts and liability.

Re: America Is in Denial

#42

Post by hotpotamus »

zaptheimpaler wrote: post #31
Apreche wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The word you’re looking for is hypocrisy. If Mitch really believed in climate change, he could vote to end the fillibuster, pass a green new deal, not appoint judges to the Supreme Court who vote against the EPA. He doesn’t have one ounce of the bravery or leadership he claims to be looking for.

Mitt Romney is the author, not Mitch.

Are there any practical differences between the two? They talk very differently but how do they vote?

Re: America Is in Denial

#43

Post by randcraw »

Romney's right, but incomplete. Our current problems are made cataclysmic by our also becoming unable to function anymore except by groupthink.

I think our lifeblood is not tribalism — we aren't that alike to divide into only two tribes — I think the real problem is fear. We've allowed ourselves (and the past 30 years of childrearing) to be overwhelmed by it and now can't function without assurance: being in a crowd of others — the most basic form of security known to animalkind — safety in numbers. The result of that now, intellectually, is we simply refuse to entertain ideas or arguments not already endorsed by others. So we cleave to whatever 'gang' is handy, never mind how dysfunctional their agenda or ideas or rationales are.

The hallmark of our times is the death of the individual.

Re: America Is in Denial

#45

Post by TigeriusKirk »

noobermin wrote: post #33
kory wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you misunderstood. Vegas uses less water in total than in the 70s, in spite of the population difference.

Does this include the suburbs of Las Vegas? A quick google search gives a report that the whole state of Nevada as a whole has increased their water use (edit: at least for domestic usage). This is in line with most of the population moving out of city centers as people moved into the suburbs that has happened for the last few decades.[0] Anyway, the fact that the water use of the state as a whole has increased throw…

Can't say about the 1970s, but there's a chart in this article showing that total water usage for southern Nevada has indeed decreased since 2002.

https://www.watereducation.org/western-water/climate-change-...

Re: America Is in Denial

#47

Post by Volundr »

kory wrote: post #4

> Even as we watch the reservoirs and lakes of the West go dry, we keep watering our lawns, soaking our golf courses, and growing water-thirsty crops. Residential water use has plummeted in the west. Some areas, like vegas, use less water than the 70s, not accounting for population changes. Arizona is the second best residential water manager in the world behind Israel. Agriculture uses the lion's share of water and…

> > As the ice caps melt and record temperatures make the evening news, we figure that buying a Prius and recycling the boxes from our daily Amazon deliveries will suffice.

> Yet again blaming individuals' choices when large corporations are by far the largest global polluters

That's not how I read this at all. Rather it's attacking the idea that a few individuals doing the "right thing" can make a difference, when really we need to tackle the larger problem such as corporations.

Re: America Is in Denial

#48

Post by finfinfin »

TigeriusKirk wrote: post #45
noobermin wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does this include the suburbs of Las Vegas? A quick google search gives a report that the whole state of Nevada as a whole has increased their water use (edit: at least for domestic usage). This is in line with most of the population moving out of city centers as people moved into the suburbs that has happened for the last few decades.[0] Anyway, the fact that the water use of the state as a whole has increased throw…

Can't say about the 1970s, but there's a chart in this article showing that total water usage for southern Nevada has indeed decreased since 2002. https://www.watereducation.org/western-water/climate-change-...

According to that graph 2020 usage is almost identical to 2003. So the only significant drop happened between 2002 and 2003. Not to nitpick, just to emphasize that the missing data from 1970 to 2002 could contain numerous large changes too.

Re: America Is in Denial

#49

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

Sharlin wrote: post #37
gedy wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like to think of it as there are no borders in the atmosphere (nor 'per capita').

There are no borders in any commons by definition; that's exactly the tragedy of commons.

both clauses above are false.

There are plenty of commons that come with borders, the most trivial of which would be a patch of land used for grazing livestock.

Garrett Hardin himself has acknowledged that he made a mistake with the concept of "the tragedy of the commons". There is no such thing. Commons have all historically been carefully managed by a complex interlocking web of understandings, traditions, rules. The so-called tragedies correspond to (essentially in every case) powerful interests ignoring or overthrowing the management structures governing a commons to pursue their own self-interest.

Re: America Is in Denial

#50

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

finfinfin wrote: post #34
kory wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you misunderstood. Vegas uses less water in total than in the 70s, in spite of the population difference.

I find this very hard to believe. Do you have any links to official state data?

The drop comes from two critical changes:

1. improvements in domestic water usage arising from changes to in-home fixtures and appliances. Per capita use in cities across the US southwest has dropped by 30% or more over the last few decades.

2. switching over to grey/recycled water usage for a huge chunk of municipal water irrigation (eg. city parks, highway medians etc.). This uses a significant amount of water, and switching to water that has already been used once has a dramatic impact.

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