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New California law requires high schools to start later

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Re: New California law requires high schools to start later

#41

Post by freedomben »

guelo wrote: post #23
giantg2 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ten sounds like a nightmare for working parents. Eight seems like a completely reasonable start time to me, yet this law prevents that. Schools should be able to decide for themselves based off of the parents and what works for those in the district.

Don't working parents already have a nightmare with school day ending around 2pm? This would just shift some of that nightmare from afternoon to morning.

not really, it doubles it. Instead of having to arrange for care/transportation/etc once for a few hours in the afternoon, now you have to arrange for it twice for an hour or two in the morning and an hour or two in the afternoon.

Re: New California law requires high schools to start later

#42

Post by iso1631 »

giantg2 wrote: post #14
httpz wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That won't work for young kids if the parents have to go to work by 9.

This is for high school. But not all high schoolers are responsible enough, so still a point. Also, the majority of people have to be at work at 8am or earlier.

Who has to be at work nowadays, other than people who tend to work in jobs which mean shift patterns.

Sometimes I have to start work at 4am, does that mean that schools should start at 3am to make it convenient for me? What about when I finish at 11pm? What if I'm working overnight?

Re: New California law requires high schools to start later

#43

Post by KMag »

synergy20 wrote: post #21

I never understand the schedule for schools: 1. elementary school starts at 7:30AM, middle school at 8:20, high school at 9:10 here. So, the youngest kid gets up at 6:50AM, older ones at 7:50AM, oldest at 8:40(assuming you're not too far from school that is). why the youngest ended up getting up the earliest puzzles me. 2. School is off in hot summer and cold winter, I would prefer they study on campus then, so they…

I've heard that adolescents'/early adults' biological clocks skew later. In my cohort, there are lots of parents annoyed that early elementary school kids wake up before them on weekends. Adolescents on the other hand are notorious for sleeping in. Anecdotes don't make data, but I've heard second hand that data backs up these stereotypes.

Supposedly Summer break is so that kids can help with harvests on family farms.

Re: New California law requires high schools to start later

#44

Post by alistairSH »

krasin wrote: post #27
giantg2 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the bigger issue is unsupervised minors. Not all high schoolers are mature enough to be left alone and go to school. I suppose this could be solved by pre-care, but that make this bill completely moot.

>Not all high schoolers are mature enough to be left alone and go to school As an anecdote, 100% of my class was coming to the school and back without being supervised since age 8. This was in 90s and not in the US, but the gap of "mature enough to go to school" between my experience and the statement feels a bit high, somehow.

Yep. And it’s 100% normal for early prior year school aged kids in Japan to cross town on the subway on their own. The American obsession with helicoptering their kids all the way through their first job is super weird and unhealthy.

Re: New California law requires high schools to start later

#45

Post by giantg2 »

iso1631 wrote: post #32
giantg2 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ten sounds like a nightmare for working parents. Eight seems like a completely reasonable start time to me, yet this law prevents that. Schools should be able to decide for themselves based off of the parents and what works for those in the district.

Why? We're talking high schools - which I believe in the US is about age 15 onwards, nothing to do with parents

How do you think this has nothing to do with parents? You do realize that 14-17 is still a minor?

Re: New California law requires high schools to start later

#46

Post by MonkeyMalarky »

giantg2 wrote: post #18
MBlume wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a high schooler needs to be driven to school by their parent, there is a serious street safety/transit problem which should be solved.

I think the bigger issue is unsupervised minors. Not all high schoolers are mature enough to be left alone and go to school. I suppose this could be solved by pre-care, but that make this bill completely moot.

If you can't trust a highschool aged kid to go to school on their own, early start times aren't going to change anything. Heck, you can drive them to the building and watch them walk inside and they'll just walk right out the back. Delinquent kids dgaf. Now for the not totally delinquent but still up for sketchy borderline behaviour kids, finishing early and having couple hours between the end of class and when their parents come home from work is when all the dumb stuff happens. Sleeping in and getting home around the same time as their parents leaves a lot fewer opportunities for hijinks.

Re: New California law requires high schools to start later

#47

Post by lasfter »

Barrera wrote: post #28

> “We know that teenagers are the most sleep-deprived age group, and the cause is our own public policy,” said Joy Wake, who helped lead the efforts of the “Start School Later” group in California. I really doubt that. Sleep deprivation comes in large part from online behavior (source: personal anecdotes). Whether or not anyone wants to talk about that is another matter. The new law is unlikely to change the sleep-de…

It is well documented since before the smartphone age that adolescence comes with changes to circadian rhythm (e.g., [0]) which makes teens want to stay up late at night.

It is certainly stronger evidence than personal anecdotes about "teens are always on their phones".

[0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19546564/

Re: New California law requires high schools to start later

#48

Post by gruez »

synergy20 wrote: post #21

I never understand the schedule for schools: 1. elementary school starts at 7:30AM, middle school at 8:20, high school at 9:10 here. So, the youngest kid gets up at 6:50AM, older ones at 7:50AM, oldest at 8:40(assuming you're not too far from school that is). why the youngest ended up getting up the earliest puzzles me. 2. School is off in hot summer and cold winter, I would prefer they study on campus then, so they…

A recent economist article explains it well:

>Since the 1950s Americans have been moving away from cities to sprawling suburbs with limited public transport. Families became car-dependent and buses were used to get pupils to school. But to save money schools often have to share bus fleets. High-schoolers are usually picked up first, then middle school, to prevent elementary pupils from waiting in the morning darkness.

https://www.economist.com/united-states/2022/06/23/californi...

Re: New California law requires high schools to start later

#49

Post by iso1631 »

msbarnett wrote: post #34
Barrera wrote: post #28

> “We know that teenagers are the most sleep-deprived age group, and the cause is our own public policy,” said Joy Wake, who helped lead the efforts of the “Start School Later” group in California. I really doubt that. Sleep deprivation comes in large part from online behavior (source: personal anecdotes). Whether or not anyone wants to talk about that is another matter. The new law is unlikely to change the sleep-de…

> Sleep deprivation comes in large part from online behavior Longitudinal studies observing that teenage circadian rhythms shift towards sleeping in later long predate "online behavior".

No post body was provided.

Re: New California law requires high schools to start later

#50

Post by yupper32 »

MBlume wrote: post #12
httpz wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That won't work for young kids if the parents have to go to work by 9.

If a high schooler needs to be driven to school by their parent, there is a serious street safety/transit problem which should be solved.

Ok, well it's not going to be solved. So what's your view on it now?
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