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The Pentagon uses a secret program to wage proxy wars

theintercept.com

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Re: The Pentagon uses a secret program to wage proxy wars

#41

Post by ahelwer »

vorpalhex wrote: post #38
ahelwer wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Religious or ethnic minorities being erased aren't shown on live TV unless it's happening in or being perpetrated by a state that your government wants to topple.

The government can't keep their own secrets contained most of the time. They are not controlling the media. That is beyond silly to even suggest.

Go watch CNN for an entire day and write down how many times Yemen or Palestine is mentioned compared with Ukraine. Come up with your own hypothesis about why this is. It's more complicated than just "government control", but thankfully people have been thinking about this for a while. You've probably heard of the book Manufacturing Consent which goes into all the structural incentives at play in the media which lead us here.

Re: The Pentagon uses a secret program to wage proxy wars

#42

Post by washadjeffmad »

vorpalhex wrote: post #22
pibechorro wrote: post #15

End all wars. Bring all troops home. Close all foreign bases. Use the budget to empower the citizens. A well regulated militia of you and I for world peace.

Pop your favorite popcorn and watch genocides occur? "Well but it's not our problem!" is not exactly comfort when a religious or ethnic minority is being erased on live tv.

It's a good thing you didn't relate this to class, because the oligarchs and warhawks really hate when the rabble don't reduce everything to identity tribalism.

Re: The Pentagon uses a secret program to wage proxy wars

#43

Post by hahaitsfunny »

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #40
amq wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you seriously doubting that there is a war in Ukraine?

I suppose it was awkwardly phrased on my part, which invited that comment. Russia's act of aggression is an act of war against Ukraine, but Russia calls it special operation, while US is engaged in various conflicts, which it deems 'anti-terrorism' activity. This is what intended to mean by that sentence. What is more interesting is that US is now officially in a proxy war with Russia as well.

The US has been in a proxy war in Ukraine since the war broke out in 2014 - we've had CIA training programs since at least 2015 to train Ukranians to fight Russians in the Donbas. The West did not like Putin backing Assad in Syria...

Ukraine is a proxy war and has been since it broke out in 2014 - plenty of evidence to suggest the US was nation building there too under the Obama admin (Nuland Pyatt tapes). Biden and Kerry were all over Ukraine as senators / VP since shortly after the fall of the USSR, and don't forget Ukraine had an IMF loan up for renewal (which was predatory to say the least) in 2013 right before Euromaidan, and Russia was going to bankroll their loan instead. Wouldn't be the first time a coup follows an IMF loan.

Don't take it from me though...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOBntnuYCMA

Re: The Pentagon uses a secret program to wage proxy wars

#44

Post by wahnfrieden »

helios_invictus wrote: post #23

The 127E program from my reading of it seems to involve small US SOF team operating in foreign countries with the logistical/security support of the local government as directed by DOD mission planning. This doesn't sound like proxy warfare, its clandestine direct action warfare. The Tongo Tongo Ambush, appears to be a 127E program with bad outcomes for the US military. Frankly I'd rather have US service members pull…

What would be non-misguided direct action warfare

Re: The Pentagon uses a secret program to wage proxy wars

#45

Post by hereforphone »

vorpalhex wrote: post #38
ahelwer wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Religious or ethnic minorities being erased aren't shown on live TV unless it's happening in or being perpetrated by a state that your government wants to topple.

The government can't keep their own secrets contained most of the time. They are not controlling the media. That is beyond silly to even suggest.

Do you believe the media has relatively clear political convictions? The treatment of presidents and parties in the US changes drastically depending on who's in power. It's almost like a joke.

Re: The Pentagon uses a secret program to wage proxy wars

#47

Post by ahelwer »

rayiner wrote: post #39
ahelwer wrote: post #11

I recently read the book The Jakarta Method and it was extremely eye-opening. I'd previously heard a very abridged account of what happened in Indonesia in the 60s from Chomsky, but this book goes and examines how the same pattern was intentionally repeated by the US in many countries throughout the world. It is scarcely an exaggeration to say the US successfully inflicted a fourth reich on the global south over the…

Is the term “global south” like the term “black and brown people?” A concept that lumps together huge swaths of the world’s population that have nothing to do with each other, and reduces them to subjects in a moralistic rant against Americans/Europeans/whites?

Broadly refers to countries with a history of being colonized rather than a history of being colonizers. There certainly was a racial aspect to colonialism, yes.

Re: The Pentagon uses a secret program to wage proxy wars

#48

Post by nico »

ahelwer wrote: post #11

I recently read the book The Jakarta Method and it was extremely eye-opening. I'd previously heard a very abridged account of what happened in Indonesia in the 60s from Chomsky, but this book goes and examines how the same pattern was intentionally repeated by the US in many countries throughout the world. It is scarcely an exaggeration to say the US successfully inflicted a fourth reich on the global south over the…

Along the same lines, there’s also the short book “War is a racket”, by retired general Smedley Butler

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Is_a_Racket

Re: The Pentagon uses a secret program to wage proxy wars

#49

Post by wahnfrieden »

lp0_on_fire wrote: post #25
ahelwer wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US funded, trained, armed, and supported with propaganda fascist elements in many countries that came to political power and committed mass murders, all for our benefit. Call it whatever you want. "Far from perfect", just lol.

I didn't deny that. I just said calling it the "fourth reich" is hyperbole. Do you honestly believe, without hyperbole, that these actions are on the same level as those committed by the Nazis while they were in power. You know they were responsible for the genocide of millions at an industrial scale, yes?

Yes

Re: The Pentagon uses a secret program to wage proxy wars

#50

Post by vorpalhex »

ahelwer wrote: post #41
vorpalhex wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government can't keep their own secrets contained most of the time. They are not controlling the media. That is beyond silly to even suggest.

Go watch CNN for an entire day and write down how many times Yemen or Palestine is mentioned compared with Ukraine. Come up with your own hypothesis about why this is. It's more complicated than just "government control", but thankfully people have been thinking about this for a while. You've probably heard of the book Manufacturing Consent which goes into all the structural incentives at play in the media which lead…

I both read and watch news heavily, including both US news and international outlets.

No, that comparison doesn't come up literally ever that I've heard from. I do recall several anti-war pieces in NY Times and others encouraging us to not back Ukraine, the usual war hawk pieces suggesting to escalate, and a bunch of poorly written stories that rehashed weeks old tweets.

As the joke goes there are two kinds of people: those who believe in conspiracies and those who have actually interacted with the government.

The closest you might get is something like Journolist which was Ezra Klein trying to convince other news heads to parrot his takes - which is a disgrace, but not some secret conspiracy.

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