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BMW F Series Gear Selector, Part Two: Breakthrough

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Re: BMW F Series Gear Selector, Part Two: Breakthrough

#41

Post by mschuster91 »

spaceywilly wrote: post #30

This makes me realize how easy it would be to hack a car like this. All you would need to do is sneak into the car and plug in a low profile OBD reader-like device with a cellular modem, and you could send these messages from anywhere. Just with the information in these articles we now know how to spoof the shifter mechanism, I’m sure similar processes could be used to determine steering and throttle controls. All th…

> All you would need to do is sneak into the car and plug in a low profile OBD reader-like device with a cellular modem, and you could send these messages from anywhere.

As the article states, modern cars employ CAN-bus gateways that act as data brokers. The OBD port usually only gets access to the buses that are relevant for emissions certifications and ordinary shop work and that's it.

The movement to separate and gated CAN buses started with people manipulating their engine controllers, initial exploits targeting the radio and then the avalanche of thieves using OBD to disable alarms and reprogram keys.

Re: BMW F Series Gear Selector, Part Two: Breakthrough

#42

Post by [deleted] »

gambiting wrote: post #17
Nullabillity wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what deluded world are items that cost tens of thousands of dollars consumables?! > I appreciate where you’re coming from but experiencing the joy of dual clutch automatics and their shifts in BMWs and Audis that I had the joy to diving might change your mind. Yeah, no thanks. A good manual transmission is a core part of the driving experience.

>>Yeah, no thanks. A good manual transmission is a core part of the driving experience. Yeah, no thanks. A good dual clutch automatic is my choice when it comes to actually driving in a sprited way. But you know what? To each their own.

[deleted]

Re: BMW F Series Gear Selector, Part Two: Breakthrough

#43

Post by jaywalk »

tjoff wrote: post #37
potatochup wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Usually there is a whitelisted set of messages available through the OBD port, it doesn't give you unfettered access to the CAN bus.

Enough for https://comma.ai/ to work so can't be that restricted? Edit: thanks to responders, I misremembered how it worked.

Look at the installation procedure for that device. It requires removing the rearview mirror and plugging the device into the existing camera's wiring harness. It's not controlling anything via the OBD-C port.

Re: BMW F Series Gear Selector, Part Two: Breakthrough

#44

Post by phkahler »

A lot of the complexity here is because the gear selector is considered a safety-critical part. They may also consider LED indicators on it as safety-critical information to the driver. Those two things - is the transmission receiving the real intent of the driver, and is the driver being told the actual state of the system - are just the top level. Security is also starting to be a concern, though I think there is room for debate about how far they need to go with that. It's common to have all drivetrain components on a dedicated CAN bus with a gateway between it and other stuff. Your infotainment system is not going to put the car in Park regardless of what you run on it.

Re: BMW F Series Gear Selector, Part Two: Breakthrough

#45

Post by BoorishBears »

CraigJPerry wrote: post #23
asciimike wrote: post #13

I've spent quite a bit of time hacking my own F-Series BMW, and I can confirm it's a _huge_ pain in the ass, mostly because there is basically zero documentation on how to do it. IMO BMW also occasionally makes some bizarre engineering decisions, for instance, connect one long wire from an internal switch console to the DME unit (engine controller) rather than connect directly to an adjacent CANBUS that already went…

If you’re willing to pay for access (it’s cheap for rare / one off access) bmw provides their AOS portal. https://aos.bmwgroup.com/web/oss/start - you’ll need something like an “icom next” to connect the car but it’ll do e-sys with the ability to install the latest firmwares. Some stuff (quite limited though) is available through the car data api - i think most f-series and all g-series i think have telematics. I hav…

If you're comfortable with slightly shadier methods, there's "grey market" access to most BMW tools.

With the F and G series ISTA is the "gold standard"

Re: BMW F Series Gear Selector, Part Two: Breakthrough

#46

Post by bri3d »

themitigating wrote: post #27
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I kinda wish, as it stands it feels like decades of different protocols and technologies awkwardly stitched together. In theory everything would be connected on a central bus to a centralized RTOS computer able to read every sensor and adjust everything that needs it 1000x a second (or more), so that anyone could easily hook up a new device or software and subscribe to an event bus, but alas.

Mostly every component on modern cars uses the CAN bus for communication https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAN_bus Many third party companies have made accessories to read information or control devices using it. Cars also have a standard diagnostic port called the OBD2 which you can purchase $10 readers that use bluetooth with your phone. Cars may have much more electronics but with all the sensors it's very easy to kno…

Saying "most cars use the CAN bus" is kind of like saying "the network uses Ethernet," though - the higher layer protocols are usually proprietary and one-off for a specific vehicle lineup.

Even the standard diagnostic protocols like UDS rapidly become non-standard once you get to the "what's what" level. For example, $22 readLocalIdentifier is standardized as "read local identifier," but what each identifier means is again 100% proprietary.

About the only thing that's completely standard is what's mandated by law: OBD-II required parameters and trouble codes. When it comes to trouble codes, even the set beyond the OBD-mandated basics are _also_ usually proprietary, requiring dealer tools or their clones to decode.

Re: BMW F Series Gear Selector, Part Two: Breakthrough

#47

Post by brk »

asciimike wrote: post #11
wolrah wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Makes me want to go out and hug my truck, whose gear selector consists of metal sticks and pins. If it's a manual transmission or an ancient automatic, sure, but manual transmission trucks basically haven't existed for a decade or so and every automatic since the mid 90s has an electronic gear selector of some variety. Somehow the world keeps working just fine. The biggest problem that's come up with them has been…

2021 Tacoma Manual owner here (one of the reasons I got it). Gladiators and Broncos are also available with a manual!

What about your steering, braking, and throttle controls?

Re: BMW F Series Gear Selector, Part Two: Breakthrough

#48

Post by asciimike »

BoorishBears wrote: post #45
CraigJPerry wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you’re willing to pay for access (it’s cheap for rare / one off access) bmw provides their AOS portal. https://aos.bmwgroup.com/web/oss/start - you’ll need something like an “icom next” to connect the car but it’ll do e-sys with the ability to install the latest firmwares. Some stuff (quite limited though) is available through the car data api - i think most f-series and all g-series i think have telematics. I hav…

If you're comfortable with slightly shadier methods, there's "grey market" access to most BMW tools. With the F and G series ISTA is the "gold standard"

Esys is available fairly easily: https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/showpost.php?p=26123409&po... (but as you say, there's some megaupload and a cracker involved).

Re: BMW F Series Gear Selector, Part Two: Breakthrough

#49

Post by thescriptkiddie »

wolrah wrote: post #6
h2odragon wrote: post #2

Makes me want to go out and hug my truck, whose gear selector consists of metal sticks and pins. I'd be leery of using this device, with all that complexity, as an input for video games. The latency makes me ugh. Certainly don't want that much "systems" stuff between me and the transmission of a car I'm piloting.

> Makes me want to go out and hug my truck, whose gear selector consists of metal sticks and pins. If it's a manual transmission or an ancient automatic, sure, but manual transmission trucks basically haven't existed for a decade or so and every automatic since the mid 90s has an electronic gear selector of some variety. Somehow the world keeps working just fine. The biggest problem that's come up with them has been…

> manual transmission trucks basically haven't existed for a decade

That might be true of pickup trucks, but commercial trucks are virtually all manual.

Re: BMW F Series Gear Selector, Part Two: Breakthrough

#50

Post by allenrb »

posterboy wrote: post #28
CraigJPerry wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d go along with that - the first time i saw the rear suspension on a mazda rx8 - it looked so familiar, a multi-link style setup with the same core components of a contemporary BMW E38 or E39. One key difference - you can access all the bolts on the Mazda. Replacing rear shocks was a doddle, i’d done the same job on my old e38 and that was multiple days thanks to combining rust with awkward UX. The mazda had the sa…

not sure if you are talking electronics anymore or mechanics.

The usual giveaways for "mechanics" are torches and impact drivers, though more than once I've been tempted to use those things on electronics...
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