Earlier quoted context omitted.
The famous experiment seems to prove that a large number young people are bad for social stability in a mice society. That amounts to a pretty strong argument against infant healthcare /s. I don't think we should generalize too much from mice to men. Deriving social policy from what works for mice seems like a very bold move to me.
A young populace is indeed closely linked to violence. The book "The Human Tide: How Population Shaped the Modern World" by Paul Morland has some interesting thoughts on the topic. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/43198718-the-human-tide
Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?
41–50 of 175 posts
Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?
#42Has this ever been replicated? Were detailed enough records kept that we be sure this happened more or less as described or is it one of the famous experiments that were at best described in a completely misleading way, like the Zimnbardo Stanford prison experiment, or wildly and willfully misinterpreted, like the murder of Kitty Genovese?
The Behavioural Sink Wikipedia page doesn't list any independent replications, though Calhoun studied the phenomenon from 1947--1995, a period of 52 years.
I'm going to emphasize independent replication as having the same principle investigator study a question doesn't meet that bar. The failure to replicate (or of Wikipedia to note any replication which might exist) is curious given the notoriety and significance of the Rat Utopia studies.
Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?
#43Earlier quoted context omitted.
The famous experiment seems to prove that a large number young people are bad for social stability in a mice society. That amounts to a pretty strong argument against infant healthcare /s. I don't think we should generalize too much from mice to men. Deriving social policy from what works for mice seems like a very bold move to me.
A young populace is indeed closely linked to violence. The book "The Human Tide: How Population Shaped the Modern World" by Paul Morland has some interesting thoughts on the topic. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/43198718-the-human-tide
Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?
#44Earlier quoted context omitted.
The famous experiment seems to prove that a large number young people are bad for social stability in a mice society. That amounts to a pretty strong argument against infant healthcare /s. I don't think we should generalize too much from mice to men. Deriving social policy from what works for mice seems like a very bold move to me.
A young populace is indeed closely linked to violence. The book "The Human Tide: How Population Shaped the Modern World" by Paul Morland has some interesting thoughts on the topic. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/43198718-the-human-tide
Having more young people doesn't magically cause more violence. Those young people don't exist in a vaccuum. Adolescents generally don't have an income and are thus dependent on their families to provide for them.
Families having more children also means they have more expenses and need to allocate more time to parenting and "family time" for each child to still receive the same level of care. Additionally there are many economic and cultural factors why poorer people are more likely to have more children than wealthier families. Availability of contraception and abortion further exacerbates this. "More young people" generally means poor people having more kids. Even if the number of children increased equally across all economic categories, this would still mean more additional poor kids than more additonal rich kids because of the size of those groups (and because not-wealthy-but-not-poor families could end up poorer because of the additional expenses).
But sure, young people cause violence.
Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?
#45Not the the science isn't interesting. Population/behavioural studies like this are quite interesting. Animal behaviour is interesting, especially group behaviours where dynamics can play out.
That said, what was he actually trying to learn? If you take the same colony, and manually removed a few hundred juveniles every week... that's basically a mouse farm.
So, we know from both logic and evidence that "overpopulation" is a thing that occurs. Organisms multiply at exponential rates, and there must be hard limits on growth somewhere. Meanwhile, rodents as especially known for boom/bust cycles. Is it surprising that behaviour gets weird during "peak mouse" events? Mice aren't cannibalistic. The colony was protected from disease. Food didn't run out. Eventually, it's so crowded and everyone is stepping on one another. Breeding becomes unsuccessful, and that's the limiting factor.
What's the alternative, that the cube becomes literally full of mice before crashing? That mouse society adopts a super slow breeding rate to stabilize populations. What happened was, ultimately, a compromise between these two.
In any case, if the goal is analogy to humans... where's the work. If it's a scientific endeavour, how do we get from insights about mice to insights about people?
Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?
#46Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?
#47One of those topics where the meta is richer than the actual science. I remember my Dad mentioning as a child. The public interest is interesting in itself. Not the the science isn't interesting. Population/behavioural studies like this are quite interesting. Animal behaviour is interesting, especially group behaviours where dynamics can play out. That said, what was he actually trying to learn? If you take the same…
Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?
#48Well, there's a phrase you don't see much.
This does feel like a kind of retro quasi-Malthusian concern these days, though. In practice, populations tend to stabilize as the economy develops, and the earth is now expected to hit peak population within decades.
Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?
#49One day I came across a cow orker attempting to do this job (I had been busy and it was usually my task); they'd put the cage in the sink and were gradually filling the basin with cold water, mice swimming and grasping each other and etc. Panic and horror. Nasty.
Somehow, one mother mouse wound up on top of the pile, holding one almost weaned baby. As the water passed her knees she stood up and held the baby over her head. Prepared to die and use every moment left keeping the kid alive.
I had to adopt her and her baby after seeing that. They were never exceptional as pet mice but I still feel good about saving those two.