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They Think It's Murder

richarddawkins.com

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Re: They Think It's Murder

#41

Post by andrewclunn »

Ah Richard Dawkins... there's no such thing as a soul, but all human life has value, but not until they exit the birth canal. At some point the secular humanists are going to realize that without any metaphysical / religious justification the notions of human equality and their moral and ethical framework become completely arbitrary. The "cut flower thesis" that we're basically just running on steam as we've severed the roots and foundations of our beliefs (in the West this would be the Bible) isn't just a thought experiment, you can plainly see it in the world around you.

So those "backwards regressives" who cling to the old ways... oh, they're the only ones reproducing at replacement rates... perhaps because they don't kill their unborn, put off family until they're beyond their health fertility window, sterilize their kids with hormone treatments, or any other countless self-destructive practices promoted by the modern "intellectuals." Turns out if we judge ideologies through meme theory, where those that are symbiotic rather than parasitic to their host (aka believer), are superior... traditional religion beats out all this modern BS. By purely Darwinian metrics "God's wisdom" is better than "institutional science" (which is little more than a corrupt cult claiming to be about empiricism at this point).

So now your days are growing short Dawkins, both for you personally and for your ideology. Yes, they think it's murder because they believe in God and a soul, which makes a lot more sense than believing that "human rights" are sacred when "human life" is not.

Re: They Think It's Murder

#42

Post by hotpotamus »

ristlane wrote: post #28

The article notably does not use the word 'fetus' - only 'embryo' is used. That's one technique to avoid addressing the strongest pro-life arguments. Intellectual honesty demands that we address the strongest versions of our opponent's argument, not just the one that makes us feel the most enlightened and makes 'them' look stupid.

Why "fetus" and not "unborn child"?

Re: They Think It's Murder

#43

Post by dsr_ »

Let's grant for the sake of this argument and this alone that fertilization signals the beginning of all rights.

You cannot be forced to donate a kidney to save someone else's life: they have no claim on your body. You cannot be forced to donate blood, for the same reason.

You cannot be forced into surgery. You have the right to refuse medicine. And, in general, you have the right to ingest whatever substances you want, even though the substances may be illegal to possess or sell.

Nevertheless, all of the above is useless, because the people who want to ban abortion are not, in general, sincere about saving humans life being their primary desire. Their primary desire is to have a subclass of humans who can be controlled and punished. Arguing with them about this is approximately useless; there are a few who are willing to discuss evidence and logic, but most are only displaying their allegiance to their tribe.

Re: They Think It's Murder

#44

Post by chungy »

LocalH wrote: post #16

My only issue with the staunch anti-abortion stance is that there have been women who have died because the doctors couldn't decide quickly enough whether an abortion was medically necessary, or outright refused anyway. There have been politicians who have espoused the opinion that ectopic pregnancies also have a "right to life" even though it is physically impossible for them to be viable, and cannot be implanted in…

> It also opens the possibility that women who have a legitimate miscarriage may be scrutinized as if they were criminals, adding to their trauma.

That has literally never been a thing considered by anyone outside the pro-abortion circles.

Miscarriages are clearly not the intention of anybody. It may be ending a life, but without the intent and without any act of killing it, it definitionally cannot be murder (the deliberate and unjustified killing of another human).

Re: They Think It's Murder

#45

Post by [deleted] »

maratc wrote: post #7

Not only "They" think it's murder, we as a society tend to think it's murder too. Here's my argument: in most jurisdictions, a killing of a pregnant woman brings harsher sentence than a killing of non-pregnant woman. In some, it just doubles the crime (double homicide, double manslaughter, etc.) Judging from this, we as a society see at least some value in the life of a foetus. The issue is a complicated one. We seem…

[deleted]

Re: They Think It's Murder

#46

Post by Nrnfkfnrn »

Beltalowda wrote: post #31
Jfjfnkdjdj wrote: post #8

Science thinks life begins at fertilization too. https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.ht...

I agree with that point of view, but I think you need to distinguish between "life" and a "human being". "Life" in general is notoriously tricky to define precisely. It is, for example, perfectly possible to amputate someone's hand an keep it alive by feeding it some type of artificial blood; not sure if it's currently possible with the state of technology, but there is nothing stopping this in principle. I think it…

The source does mention the beginning of a "human being"

"Fertilization is a sequence of events that begins with the contact of a sperm with a secondary oocyte and ends with the fusion of their pronuclei and the mingling of their chromosomes to form a new cell. This fertilized ovum, known as a zygote, is a large diploid cell that is the beginning, or primordium, of a human being."

Re: They Think It's Murder

#47

Post by gedy »

Bud wrote: post #15

Dawkins says that we "need to persuade" them. But he's wrong. We're the majority. They managed to change the law, even though they are a minority. This cannot stand. If they want to change the law, then THEY need to persuade US. That's supposed to be how it works.

> They managed to change the law, even though they are a minority.

Are you talking about now or in 1973?

Re: They Think It's Murder

#48

Post by jwie »

Dawkins is not a stupid man, yet he does not make arguments that the embryo isn't a human life in all his erudite prose. Who will he convince?

Our early-modern ancestors, and even those only a few generations ago were more than aware that most babies did not survive. Whether miscarried, birthed still, or died in infancy. Our ancestors never imagined these things weren't deaths, and that those who cause them intentionally, wicked.

There were of course exceptions to this judgement, but there is the rub; they were exceptions.

Re: They Think It's Murder

#49

Post by V__ »

JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #2

In religions that believe in hell based on life choices, the ultimate smart move would be all fetuses aborted. The chance of heaven is 100% that way. What chance of heaven do we get if we are actually born? Maybe 10% at most? Billions are being condemned to eternal damnation if the fetuses are allowed to be born and live a life for at most about 100 years. That seems incredibly selfish and silly and short-sighted. We…

This sounds like a Stargate episode. A planet with only very old religious fundamentalists. They accept their eternity in hell but see it as a worthy sacrifice since all aborted souls go to heaven and when their species ceases to exist they know all sin will be gone. The arrival of SG-1 threatens their plan, so they try to wage war against humans in the whole galaxy.

Re: They Think It's Murder

#50

Post by hotpotamus »

k__ wrote: post #22
lapcat wrote: post #11

The article completely fails to mention that religious people tend to believe that humans have a "soul" and animals don't, which seems to me to be a massive oversight. Of course Dawkins doesn't believe in the soul, but it's hard to see how his arguments are going to move anyone who does believe. The other problem with the argument is that, on the other side, many vegans believe that killing animals for food is wrong.

What are the properties of a soul? How does it work with twins from one egg? Does it split?

And furthermore is the soul eternal? If the soul is present at conception and then the corporeal body is aborted, is the soul re-used in another child, or does it go to eternal judgement directly? How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
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