3M’s PFAS Crisis Has Come to Europe • Hacker News Board

Re: 3M’s PFAS Crisis Has Come to Europe

#41

Post by hdjjhhvvhga » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 4:37 PM UTC

colechristensen wrote: post #35

elil17 wrote: post #9

After reading the series "A Chemical Hunger" by the blog Slime Mold Time Mold, I'm pretty convinced that chemical contamination is a global-warming level threat to humanity. The authors talk about the evidence that chemicals released into the environment by human activity (such as PFAS) are causing obesity, and they present compelling evidence that this is plausible. They are also working on research to confirm this…

There is a whole lot of mild panic going on. Here’s the deal, you’re going to die. It’s going to happen for one reason or another, and if you eliminate one reason, there will be another one lined up not so long after. If your purpose in life is to maximize the number of days you live, I guess you do you, but it doesn’t seem like a very high quality life to me. We take risks, we accept them, there’s middle ground betw…

> If your purpose in life is to maximize the number of days you live, I guess you do you, but it doesn’t seem like a very high quality life to me.

People have a tendency to go to the extreme. There is a lot of middle ground between not caring at all and having a panic attack. This middle ground can be constructively used to make the lives of future generations easier, just like many of the people of the past have done for us.[0]

[0] Having spent a few months off-grid, I'm extremely grateful for things like electricity, tap water, sewage, central heating, a roof above my head, walls around me thicker than my tent, medicines, and many, many other things I used to take for granted.

Re: 3M’s PFAS Crisis Has Come to Europe

#42

Post by dylan604 » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 4:37 PM UTC

mensetmanusman wrote: post #22

It would be an interesting future historical study to see what caused more harm: -Manufacturing the best firefighting chemistry (e.g. military purchases for missile warehouses, resorts, apartments, etc.) -Using the chemistry to actually fight fires It might be a case where sometimes second best should have been the way to go, but it’s hard to know beforehand I imagine, especially in safety scenarios where people are…

At this point, we have an over abundance [edit: of evidence] that when we as humans do new science in pursuit of good, we tend to overlook the negative aspects. Chemical companies spend a fortune on development of the new chemical and rush it to market to recoup investments. We never spend enough time looking at the down side of these new chemicals even though we have all of the information we currently have that shows these chemicals tend to not do so well in the environment. We also have abundance of examples where these companies knew the dangers and hid them in order to make their money. Yet with all of this information, nothing is done to prevent the release of these chemicals without 3rd party testing.

The citizens being affected have very little recourse.

Re: 3M’s PFAS Crisis Has Come to Europe

#43

Post by nscalf » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 4:41 PM UTC

colechristensen wrote: post #35

elil17 wrote: post #9

After reading the series "A Chemical Hunger" by the blog Slime Mold Time Mold, I'm pretty convinced that chemical contamination is a global-warming level threat to humanity. The authors talk about the evidence that chemicals released into the environment by human activity (such as PFAS) are causing obesity, and they present compelling evidence that this is plausible. They are also working on research to confirm this…

There is a whole lot of mild panic going on. Here’s the deal, you’re going to die. It’s going to happen for one reason or another, and if you eliminate one reason, there will be another one lined up not so long after. If your purpose in life is to maximize the number of days you live, I guess you do you, but it doesn’t seem like a very high quality life to me. We take risks, we accept them, there’s middle ground betw…

Well this is just wrong. First off, there is no evidence that it will be impossible for medical science to eventually solve most aging related illness, and mitigate most diseases. There is no practical reason to assume that trying to increase lifespan is a fools errand. Medical advancements look like big breakthroughs followed by decades of incremental improvements. Right now, it's starting to look like AI can increase the rate of breakthroughs and tighten the incremental improvement periods, so an extra 5 years of life may end up being enough to benefit from substantial medical progress.

Second, obesity isn't caused by the availability of food. Most well developed countries have an essentially infinite amount of food for any given individual, and most individuals do not stop eating because they lack the resources to access more food. So why isn't every individual in these society with these resources massively obese? Because there are a number of psychological, chemical, and biological reasons for obesity. Largely, the cause for obesity comes in the form of appetite suppression vs satiation. There are many chemicals like PFAS which decreases satiety, increasing the calories you intake.

Just like how removing heavy metals from drinking water and increases in food availability increased the general quality of life for all affected people, decreasing the amount of chemicals affecting satiety in the general environment could have massive impacts for societies that are impacted.

In short, if your baseline hunger is lower, you won't get fat.

Re: 3M’s PFAS Crisis Has Come to Europe

#44

Post by zarzavat » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 4:49 PM UTC

colechristensen wrote: post #35

elil17 wrote: post #9

After reading the series "A Chemical Hunger" by the blog Slime Mold Time Mold, I'm pretty convinced that chemical contamination is a global-warming level threat to humanity. The authors talk about the evidence that chemicals released into the environment by human activity (such as PFAS) are causing obesity, and they present compelling evidence that this is plausible. They are also working on research to confirm this…

There is a whole lot of mild panic going on. Here’s the deal, you’re going to die. It’s going to happen for one reason or another, and if you eliminate one reason, there will be another one lined up not so long after. If your purpose in life is to maximize the number of days you live, I guess you do you, but it doesn’t seem like a very high quality life to me. We take risks, we accept them, there’s middle ground betw…

Clearly there exist risks we should invest time in avoiding. It takes time to look both ways when crossing the road, but that is time well spent given the large risk of death when crossing without looking.

Likewise there are risks that are better ignored. There is risk in flying on an airplane, but it’s not risky enough to forego the good that comes of it.

Only with quantification comes the ability to rationally decide whether to take a risk or not.

The issue with these chemicals is that we do not know how to even quantify their risk. So we have to estimate and people’s gut estimates vary wildly. Your gut estimate is that there is a low risk, others estimate a high risk.

Only time will tell who is correct, such is the uncertainty of life.

Re: 3M’s PFAS Crisis Has Come to Europe

#45

Post by RobertRoberts » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 4:52 PM UTC

collegeburner wrote: post #20

RobertRoberts wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you recommending bloodletting as a cure for some of the nastiest pollution ever created by humans? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloodletting

Just because it doesn't cure everything doesn't make it useless, bodybuilders do it as well to control blood pressure. Kinda like how those bubonic plague masks don't make covid masks useless.

Are you saying because bodybuilder use bloodletting that it's a good solution to blood pressure issues?

Re: 3M’s PFAS Crisis Has Come to Europe

#46

Post by IYasha » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 4:55 PM UTC

MrBuddyCasino wrote: post #7

Nothing will change until there are prison sentences, and the very deliberate system of shielding managers and corporations from responsibility is changed. It was known for decades that Asbestos and cigarettes causes lung cancer, that adding lead to gasoline is a terrible idea, that burning oil warms the atmosphere. The truth was suppressed through intimidation, lawsuits and bribes. Regulatory agencies are corrupted…

I totally agree with you, but it should be noted that not all kinds of asbestos are harmful. One safe type is used today in apartment building with no measurable consequences.

Re: 3M’s PFAS Crisis Has Come to Europe

#47

Post by mensetmanusman » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 4:56 PM UTC

xxpor wrote: post #28

mensetmanusman wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When my mother moved in and we went on daily walks, she lost a pound a week for a year. Her entirely sedentary lifestyle (and that of most Americans I know) is a major factor for her obesity. Standing is now considered exercise it has gotten so bad. But people will blame anything instead of taking action, so…

What if the chemicals aren't making you fat directly, but messing with your neurotransmitters and sapping your motivation? Doesn't seem completely out of the realm of possibility.

That would be an interesting study.

I wonder if one could find an ethical human study that could parse out a molecule and its effect on demotivation compared to the effect of media, sunlight exposure, obesity, etc.

Re: 3M’s PFAS Crisis Has Come to Europe

#48

Post by PuppyTailWags » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 4:56 PM UTC

mensetmanusman wrote: post #24

elil17 wrote: post #9

After reading the series "A Chemical Hunger" by the blog Slime Mold Time Mold, I'm pretty convinced that chemical contamination is a global-warming level threat to humanity. The authors talk about the evidence that chemicals released into the environment by human activity (such as PFAS) are causing obesity, and they present compelling evidence that this is plausible. They are also working on research to confirm this…

When my mother moved in and we went on daily walks, she lost a pound a week for a year. Her entirely sedentary lifestyle (and that of most Americans I know) is a major factor for her obesity. Standing is now considered exercise it has gotten so bad. But people will blame anything instead of taking action, so…

I'm pretty sure daily walks (no heart rate elevation, not HIIT, no muscle being built, etc.) didn't contribute significantly to your mother's weight loss. Moving around is not a significant contributor to weight loss[1]. Diet is the most significant contributing factor to gaining or losing weight. Moving in with someone new, new environment, new dietary changes, etc. might've done significantly more.

1. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3925973/, from the abstract, "Based on the present literature, unless the overall volume of aerobic ET is very high, clinically significant weight loss is unlikely to occur. "

Re: 3M’s PFAS Crisis Has Come to Europe

#49

Post by mensetmanusman » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 4:57 PM UTC

dmos62 wrote: post #39

mensetmanusman wrote: post #22

It would be an interesting future historical study to see what caused more harm: -Manufacturing the best firefighting chemistry (e.g. military purchases for missile warehouses, resorts, apartments, etc.) -Using the chemistry to actually fight fires It might be a case where sometimes second best should have been the way to go, but it’s hard to know beforehand I imagine, especially in safety scenarios where people are…

Here's an instance of the phenomenon. > In fact, in the case of the V-2, more than twice as many Allied prisoners died outfitting the factory and producing it than did Allied civilians and soldiers hit by it in rocket attacks. https://airandspace.si.edu/stories/editorial/wonder-weapons-...

That is amazing, thanks for the link!

Re: 3M’s PFAS Crisis Has Come to Europe

#50

Post by IYasha » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 4:58 PM UTC

carapace wrote: post #31

*Stands on soapbox* I've been kicking around an idea I've been tentatively calling "techno-conservatism". The tl;dr: "Like Amish, not Luddites." It's becoming more and more clear that each of our technologies has trade-offs, and the uncritical acceptance of those trade-offs has lead us to poison ourselves and the world in several fairly significant ways. This would seem to me to make a more considered and conservativ…

As long as tech owners openly state that humanity should be reduced in quantity, it is pretty clear that they don't care, at best, if not contrary (create harmful tech on purpose).