Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#41

Post by bena » Fri, Jun 10, 2022, 2:59 PM UTC

logicalmonster wrote: post #22

Just to play Devil's Advocate: being explicit about salaries is the kind of practice that sounds amazingly good on the surface, but might have some unintended real-world consequences. For instance, whereas before when salaries weren't explicit, a weaker candidate with some good qualities who was on the bubble for consideration might be able to get a job if the salary was more favorable than the company was initially…

What do you think happens now?

Because that is pretty much what happens now, except now the applicant doesn't know the range.

The only thing that can happen with this is that people who think they're worth outside the range won't apply. And this isn't that much of a problem.

If the employer finds they aren't getting the quality of applicant they desire, they have an option: increase or change the range.

There is a lot of information asymmetry in hiring and most of it benefits employers.

Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#42

Post by s1mon » Fri, Jun 10, 2022, 3:01 PM UTC

logicalmonster wrote: post #22

Just to play Devil's Advocate: being explicit about salaries is the kind of practice that sounds amazingly good on the surface, but might have some unintended real-world consequences. For instance, whereas before when salaries weren't explicit, a weaker candidate with some good qualities who was on the bubble for consideration might be able to get a job if the salary was more favorable than the company was initially…

Yes, these are both real risks.

There are potential solutions. There are so many job levels at big companies like Microsoft. A candidate who is weaker could interview for software engineer 3 (made up title for example) and be offered a software engineer 2 position with the understanding that the company sees potential, but wants to start the person at what they see as an appropriate level.

The high performing candidate may ignore a job listing for a position which doesn't have a high enough top end to the range, but perhaps if they are being recruited rather than approaching the company, the recruiter could recognize the value of the candidate and find a higher role which would have a more competitive salary range.

Some companies can only hire specific advertised roles, but in many cases they advertise for one role/level and end up hiring candidates for others. Big companies could also have open reqs for more levels than they think they need, and then slot the candidates in to the level which makes sense.

Another approach they could take is to make the published salary ranges more broad than the are in practice. Hotels in many places have to publish the room rate, but typically this is an insanely high number which only happens when there's a special event or something.

Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#43

Post by ChicagoBoy11 » Fri, Jun 10, 2022, 3:02 PM UTC

This is going do to absolutely nothing. Most of this legislation does nothing to really address the potential for folks to just advertise incredibly wide potential salary ranges, to say nothing of alternative ways that they can change total compensation "for the right candidate," if you catch my drift. I would suspect that the biggest effect of this is to actually lead to overall greater distrusts, as folks will make all sorts of assumptions based on the ranges they see for jobs at their companies, based on their own biases. True transparency which would require something like disclosure of average/median total compensation at the company for that role, for instance, would be incredibly meaningful, but it will never come.

Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#44

Post by kirillbobyrev » Fri, Jun 10, 2022, 3:03 PM UTC

Victerius wrote: post #23

grimjack00 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> E.g. What if Microsoft has a job opening with a range of $110k - $170k, and the candidate they selected used to make $180k and would like $200k? If I was reviewing job descriptions, and the max of the posted range is less than my current salary, I'm probably not going to apply.

Another situation: You make 160k, the max range is 170k, but you'd like more than the max range. In the old world, this would work. You would gain more comp, and your new employer would acquire your talent. It's the free market at work. In the new world, neither of those will happen. I'm concerned about the consequences of that on economic growth and innovation.

Are you saying that the employers won't give 170k+ if the disclosed max range is 170k? I highly doubt that, the only change here is that the range that was previously only visible to the hiring managers within the company is now also visible to the candidates. If they could go beyond the internally visible range before, they would surely be able to do it now. The only difference is that before the candidates would have no idea whether they're already maxed out on the given range or if there's still plenty of room to negotiate.

Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#45

Post by ekianjo » Fri, Jun 10, 2022, 3:03 PM UTC

chrismeller wrote: post #21

epwr wrote: post #8

> Microsoft said it would disclose salary ranges in all internal and external U.S. job postings no later than January 2023. That date is when Washington state, where Microsoft’s headquarters are located, will start requiring employers with at least 15 employees to disclose salary ranges for each position. In other news, Microsoft to comply with a new law.

“Software Engineer I - 40-250k”

anything preventing them from doing very large ranges like that?

Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#46

Post by JamesSwift » Fri, Jun 10, 2022, 3:04 PM UTC

InefficientRed wrote: post #24

ENOTTY wrote: post #6

Given that most big tech companies' base salary tends to plateau and total comp begins to be dominated by stock grants and performance bonuses, just how much real transparency is actually going to be provided?

Agreed 100%. At big tech salary is close to useless and rarely the primary number that changes during negotiations. My highest paying job -- a 3.5x raise -- came with a $75K salary cut compared to my previous job. This should be, by far, the top voted comment. I don't think MSFT sharing salary ranges is consequential in any way.

Sure it is.

If more start to do it, it becomes an arms race. If a company is loading the compensation in other ways and coming in light on salary then their job posting becomes much less compelling for job seekers. So they have a choice: disclose the other compensation (in order to compete with the salary numbers of the other companies) or adjust their compensation to be heavier on salary so their numbers are in line with others.

Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#47

Post by DannyBee » Fri, Jun 10, 2022, 3:05 PM UTC

hef19898 wrote: post #19

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> sources saying it's only about jobs open to Washington residents? Washington state can't regulate how Microsoft hires people in Texas. Microsoft Corp. isn't even a Washington legal entity. (EDIT: Never mind, I stand corrected [1]. In any case, the broader point stands. Delaware doesn't get to regulate how its entities hire outside Delaware. This is well-settled employment/interstate commerce law.) [1] https://www.s…

If you do that only for jobs in Washington state it is only a question of time until the first discrimibation law suites are filed. Plus it is easy good press.

and then the law would get struck down because, as said, washington state isn't allowed to regulate interstate commerce.

Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#48

Post by outside1234 » Fri, Jun 10, 2022, 3:06 PM UTC

But will it include stock ranges too? This is where the huge discrepancy occurs between candidates.

Salary is almost always in a tight range at Microsoft at a given level -- but external candidates can get anywhere from peanuts (a so called "tier 1" offer) to jumbo stock allocations (a so called "tier 3" offer).

Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#49

Post by naikrovek » Fri, Jun 10, 2022, 3:07 PM UTC

ChicagoBoy11 wrote: post #43

This is going do to absolutely nothing. Most of this legislation does nothing to really address the potential for folks to just advertise incredibly wide potential salary ranges, to say nothing of alternative ways that they can change total compensation "for the right candidate," if you catch my drift. I would suspect that the biggest effect of this is to actually lead to overall greater distrusts, as folks will make…

I want to be snarky and compliment you on your clairvoyance while pointing out that you are only guessing, and instead I'll just ask why you think this kind of thing is never coming, given that some companies already do this.

Re: Microsoft will include pay ranges in all U.S. job postings

#50

Post by snowwrestler » Fri, Jun 10, 2022, 3:07 PM UTC

Victerius wrote: post #23

grimjack00 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> E.g. What if Microsoft has a job opening with a range of $110k - $170k, and the candidate they selected used to make $180k and would like $200k? If I was reviewing job descriptions, and the max of the posted range is less than my current salary, I'm probably not going to apply.

Another situation: You make 160k, the max range is 170k, but you'd like more than the max range. In the old world, this would work. You would gain more comp, and your new employer would acquire your talent. It's the free market at work. In the new world, neither of those will happen. I'm concerned about the consequences of that on economic growth and innovation.

Salary bands are tied to title. If the max range of the listed position is $160k, and the company wants to hire you for $200k, they will just hire you into a more senior title (which has a higher range).

This is how it happens now, and how it will still happen. Disclosing the initial range target does not prevent it.