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California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

nytimes.com

41–50 of 136 posts

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#41

I hope this is the beginning of a shift back towards the centre on both the right and the left.

Just for an additional perspective, for most of the world's democracies both the US republicans and democrats are very much on the right-wing side of the political spectrum. I am not saying there is anything wrong with American Democrats but if you look at actual policies they would be labeled centre right anywhere else in the world. As an American friend once put it to me "Americans believe luck is made, so social h…

> Just for an additional perspective, for most of the world's democracies both the US republicans and democrats are very much on the right-wing side of the political spectrum.

I hear this a lot, but as someone who's fairly up on politics in a few Western European countries I don't think it's accurate.

For example, the current democratic party platform supports universal healthcare, mass immigration with a roadmap to citizenship for undocumented immigrants, expansion of visas and a removal of wealth/income requirements, a major commitment to environmental protection and an acknowledgement of climate change including getting to net-zero emissions and devoting tens of billions to foreign aid.

That's all pretty in-line with left wing political manifestos/platforms in most of western europe.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#42
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way does this give you hope that the right is moving more center?

Because the left has gone so far left that everyone looks like they are far right comparatively. So by having the left come more towards the center, the whole political spectrum would shrink back towards the middle.

Abortion is about to become illegal in almost half the country, police departments overwhelmingly haven't been defunded, congress didn't pass an infrastructure bill, the federal minimum wage is still $7.25, there's still been no repercussions for 1/6, trans kids can't get proper healthcare in 2 republican States (and growing), there's no universal healthcare or student debt forgiveness, and there's still no meaningful gun reform.

Your claim that the left has gone "so far left that everyone looks like they are far right comparatively" is detached from reality.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#43
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way does this give you hope that the right is moving more center?

Because the left has gone so far left that everyone looks like they are far right comparatively. So by having the left come more towards the center, the whole political spectrum would shrink back towards the middle.

"the left has gone so far left that everyone looks like they are far right comparatively."

When people say stuff like this I wonder what planet they're from.

It's not like the US even has a viable Socialist party, never mind a Marxist or Communist one.

I've never heard a Democrat call for the abolishment of private property or a revolution of the proletariat. In America, dreams of that sort died with end of the 60's and 70s with the destruction of the Weather Underground, the assassinations of MLK, Malcolm X, and RFK, the neutering of unions and the labor movement. The rise to power of Reaganism in the 80s and the switch of former leftists to Neo Cons sealed the left's fate.

Now pretty much everyone in America in any position of power (Republican or Democrat) is pretty solidly capitalist, which isn't exactly a far left position. Most of the leaders are also pretty pro-war and happy to support the military-industrial complex, which are not traditionally leftist positions in the US.

Republicans, on the other hand, have called for revolution, and some have even acted on it. The major terrorist attacks on America since Timothy McVeigh have come from the right (which includes not only "patriot" and "militia" groups and the "lone nut" inspired by the endless hatred and calls for violence on conservative talk radio, but also Muslim fundamenalists, who themselves are pretty right wing and have much more in common with right wing extremists because of their anti-women, anti-progress, and theocratic views than with the left).

The left in America is a complete joke when you compare it to how strong it is in Europe, where you can actually find viable openly Socialist and Communist parties, very strong unions, and solid social safety nets. What passes for the "left" in the US would be considered right wing there.

The only thing remotely left wing that I can see in mainstream American politics today is support for abortion and tolerance of minorities and people of different sexual identities/orientations. While important, that's a pretty small ledge for the left to stand on.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#44
post #7

I hope this is the beginning of a shift back towards the centre on both the right and the left.

In what way does this give you hope that the right is moving more center?

I'm in a fairly purple state and I don't consider myself a Republican, a Democrat, or even a moderate. I have some views that align with one party and some that align with another.

If anything, the right has largely shifted to the center over the course of my life. For example: they, along with Democrats for quite a while, were opposed to gay marriage. While I'm sure there's still a small contingent that would roll that back if they could it's very much not an issue for the party anymore.

The left, or at least a good portion of the democratic party? They've gone off the rails in the past 10+ years. Everything is now about race or sex. Everything. It's 100% OK to discriminate against white men. We should have open borders. Abortion should be legal up until birth. Prepubescent children should be allowed to go on hormone blockers and get surgery if they think they're trans. Transwomen should be able to compete against women in sports. The Kavanaugh confirmation was a disgusting point in US history. Let's ban guns. The list could go on.

From what I see, Republicans largely want things to stay the same or be rolled back by a decade or so.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#45

I think Democrats at the national level underestimate how much inner-city Democratic mayors, city councils, school boards, and district attorneys determine their image as a party. If suburban swing voters, when commuting into the city center to work, shop, go to a show, etc. see homeless encampments and vacant storefronts, it's going to hit the Democrats' image as a party that can run things. Republicans in city gove…

Do Republican run jurisdictions not have a problem with homelessness, or is it just less visible? Are they shifting their homeless burden to places like cities with more programs and support for homelessness? Because I've never actually heard a Republican plan for dealing with homelessness that doesn't involve criminalizing it and sweeping it under the rug where no one can see it.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is toleration of fascism? Most people I talked to don't even know what fascism is, but they use the term very liberally. Do you have national-socialists in California?

facism is far-right authoritarian ultra-nationalism national-socialist are one movement which is fascist, they are by far not the only one. (Nazis are fascist with socialist paint coat). The US never had (internally) a problem with nazis, I think. But it does have a problem with white supremacist. It also does have a problem with religious extremist, most times Christian based. Both of this groups have quite a bit of…

Another aspect of the definition is the marriage of state and corporation. Seeing shades of that since Covid started.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just for an additional perspective, for most of the world's democracies both the US republicans and democrats are very much on the right-wing side of the political spectrum. I am not saying there is anything wrong with American Democrats but if you look at actual policies they would be labeled centre right anywhere else in the world. As an American friend once put it to me "Americans believe luck is made, so social h…

>the world's democracies both the US republicans and democrats are very much on the right-wing side of the political spectrum Not in terms of social policies. How many European centre-left policies support giving puberty blockers to children? How many European centre-left policies support abortion right up to the time of birth?

Depends on how you define support. Legal for medical professionals to prescribe to children? If so, then quite a few EU countries do support that (with varying requirements of course).

And the recently introduced abortion bill by the Democrats which ultimately failed, does not match what you are saying (time limited by viability and exception for life-saving measures). It however matches roughly the (varying) standards in the various EU countries.

So both not really examples where the Democrats vary greatly from the average in the EU.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#48

I hope this is the beginning of a shift back towards the centre on both the right and the left.

Just for an additional perspective, for most of the world's democracies both the US republicans and democrats are very much on the right-wing side of the political spectrum. I am not saying there is anything wrong with American Democrats but if you look at actual policies they would be labeled centre right anywhere else in the world. As an American friend once put it to me "Americans believe luck is made, so social h…

The tyranny of the French National Assembly’s seating chart continues!

I’m just going to say it: the perception of where the American Democratic Party or the American Republican Party sits only matters to American voters. To whatever extent it interests foreigners, I’m happy to provide the entertainment as I take plenty of entertainment watching foreign politics myself, so fair is fair, but an outside observation of where we sit politically isn’t an actionable or useful observation because we’re not those other countries.

That isn’t to say there isn’t anything to be learned from the actions of other governments, whatever their domestic political makeup, but I am happy that if this were 1792 neither major American 2022 political party would be perceived to be getting buddy-buddy with the left of the French National Assembly. Actually gives me some hope for my country to think of it that way.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#49
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but the left didn't shift left in a relevant degree, they are more right then most center parties in the EU. Its right which shifted so far right that it might seem the left shifted away. A lot of things coming from the republican party, of bring tolerated by the republican party on recent years are uncanily similar to how Hitler proceeded before he started mass murdering (like in the rethoric of speach and willingne…

> but the left didn't shift left in a relevant degree, they are more right then most center parties in the EU. This is said a lot online, but I'd like some concrete examples. Our abortion laws are (for now) more lax than almost all European countries, and the US left still wants more. Our tax system is more progressive than many European countries, but our rich still need to pay their "fair share." The left in the US…

> Our abortion laws are (for now) more lax than almost all European countries,

The way it currently looks is the right want to ban abortion no matter what context. Which is far far more strict then most EU countries. And the current legality status is in a legal gray are as far as I know, which is also worse then in many EU countries, through in practice in some states might not. And sure there are EU countries which are also quite far right.

> Our tax system is more progressive than many European countries

Progressive is not the same as left/right. I'm not sure a tax system can be left/right at all. But if we look at the usage of taxes than it's a very clear no.

> but our rich still need to pay their "fair share."

No, not at all. Through sadly that is the case for huge parts of the word.

> The left in the US wants us to essentially have completely open borders, and there's been a huge pushback to the 'refugees' coming to Europe.

The US (and EU) are a major (but not the only) drivers behind the conflicts leading to the refuges...

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#50
post #17
post #2

This SF district attorney recall thing is a really good example of the media's power to manufacture a story. Even if you accept the premise that crime stats rise or fall in response to DA policies, those stats mostly fell during Boudin's tenure. But if you show the video of someone robbing a convenience store (in oakland! another city entirely!) enough times on loop, you can convince enough voters that Something Must…

Statistics are not reality. Crime stats fell because the DA was so tolerant of crime, people stopped bothering to report anything but the most serious ones.

So in this land of topsy turvy logic, high crime stats is a good thing, because that means they're being reported?
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