Punchd - A Loyalty Program (from Google) • Hacker News Board

Re: Punchd - A Loyalty Program (from Google)

#41

Post by buro9 » Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 7:58 AM UTC

cloudwalking wrote: post #39

buro9 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard to know what to say here, but we (Yell Labs) have built what appears to be the exact same solution to this problem that punchd have. As far as I can tell we started at around the same time but from London, UK. And we have our own patent applications (that I was unhappy about submitting because I don't agree that they were non-obvious, and that punchd did the same thing elsewhere at the same time is evidence of t…

We are using a lot of signals too. GPS is the only one we talk about :) You're right, it is a very delicate line between catching as many cheaters as possible while avoiding false-positives. We like to err on the side of false-negatives as much as possible.

The ultimate thing of course is: Prove the customer was in the shop and making a purchase.

And I'm sure you've also looked into whether the QR code could be generated per transaction (they could be, but does this place too high a cost-burden on the merchant and if a new device is used to display the generated codes is that going to meet local food hygiene standards for food outlets - and if existing devices are used such as printing on the receipts of their EPOS, is that accommodated by EPOS software).

We also looked into watermarking some signal from a sensor to prove that they were there, then we discovered Shopkick doing this with their noise emitter (a novel approach). We're unsure whether this is the best approach (requires another power point in the merchant, a mount point, installation, and if the emitted signal is dynamic then it requires a connection).

It's an interesting thing for sure... the best thing we've done to date is launch in a student bar with an alcohol deal, there is nothing that generates great data for security like letting compsci students hammer it with the reward of free beer. It's effectively our bug bounty... defeat our system and get a beer (or several) and strongly incentivises us to not have them defeat it.

Re: Punchd - A Loyalty Program (from Google)

#42

Post by steelaz » Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 8:44 AM UTC

shoota wrote: post #3

This seems to compete with some of the benefits of using Google Wallet. Although, I suppose a Google Wallet based loyalty card requires a lot larger investment by the business. Also since a QR code is just an image and not something more complicated like an NFC tag what's to stop someone from taking a picture of it with their phone and scanning it multiple times at home? edit:* well looking at their FAQ they say this…

I think printing QR code on a receipt would solve fraud issue, but again, requires additional investment.

Re: Punchd - A Loyalty Program (from Google)

#43

Post by vetler » Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 9:15 AM UTC

Huh .. I had an idea like this a few weeks ago when I saw a video about paying with your phone using NFC. However, I usually think my ideas to death, so I ended up dismissing it. Probably why I'm not an entrepreneur. My problem was perhaps that I considered it in the scale of small coffee shops, and found the hassle of them getting the infrastructure and the increased overhead of printing and scanning codes to be too big of a problem for adoption.

However, for larger chains, this seems like an excellent solution. Getting the infrastructure in place won't be such a big problem if you roll this out across, let's say McDonalds. You could have a McDonald's-specific app and tie it in with Facebook and Twitter and Gowalla whatnot. But for smaller shops, there might not be such a big advantage. They might not even need this. But I'll happily be proven wrong.

Re: Punchd - A Loyalty Program (from Google)

#44

Post by vetler » Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 9:21 AM UTC

dpark wrote: post #22

ben1040 wrote: post #17

A frozen yogurt shop I used to visit a lot started using Punchd back in June. The app is cute, but I'd rather just have a paper card. After the transaction, the clerk has to pull out a QR code card to let you scan. The app on your phone won't try scanning until it can get a location to verify you're actually there. Maybe a quarter of the time my phone's flaky GPS has trouble getting a location, so the clerk ends up s…

So the punch is based on scanning a QR code? Unless I'm misunderstanding, this is really broken. It sounds like someone could write a counterfeit app that scans the QR code, records the current location, and resubmits every minute, recording tons of punches that never actually happened. They should do it the other way. Your phone should pop up a unque code for the cashier to scan. I guess that makes the barrier to en…

My local coffee shop uses a paper card that is scribbled with signatures. It would probably be easy for me to fake it and get free coffee. The security requirements for this are pretty lenient. Of course, this doesn't mean that a more technical replacement such as Punchd shouldn't be secure, I just think it's interesting that security wasn't such a big deal before, but now it is, since there's a technical solution.

Re: Punchd - A Loyalty Program (from Google)

#45

Post by clowder » Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 9:39 AM UTC

Looks like a fun product! Anyone know of any UK based businesses using it?

Re: Punchd - A Loyalty Program (from Google)

#46

Post by i386 » Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 10:37 AM UTC

Yet another Google launch that is US only (Well at least not available in Australia).

Google - people outside the US exist and we want to use your stuff!

Re: Punchd - A Loyalty Program (from Google)

#47

Post by jrubinovitz » Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 11:09 AM UTC

I find it interesting how on the pricing page one of the selling points is "No advanced technology No technology at the Point of Sale. Set-up is simple, print once and your loyalty program is ready to go. Sign-up completely online in 10 minutes or less." While this a turn off for me, I'm a technology person, so I guess for some markets simple is better.

Other than that, I love the marketing here. It feels very simple, clean, and honest, like the product (hopefully, I haven't tried it).

Re: Punchd - A Loyalty Program (from Google)

#48

Post by callmeed » Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 4:53 PM UTC

cloudwalking wrote: post #38

callmeed wrote: post #29

So excited Google is keeping Punchd going. SLO and Cal Poly represent!

Have you used Punchd in SLO? It's all over!

Yeah, my office is downtown and we have our normal lunch rotation. Petra is the main place I've used it.

Re: Punchd - A Loyalty Program (from Google)

#49

Post by dpark » Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 6:02 PM UTC

vetler wrote: post #44

dpark wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the punch is based on scanning a QR code? Unless I'm misunderstanding, this is really broken. It sounds like someone could write a counterfeit app that scans the QR code, records the current location, and resubmits every minute, recording tons of punches that never actually happened. They should do it the other way. Your phone should pop up a unque code for the cashier to scan. I guess that makes the barrier to en…

My local coffee shop uses a paper card that is scribbled with signatures. It would probably be easy for me to fake it and get free coffee. The security requirements for this are pretty lenient. Of course, this doesn't mean that a more technical replacement such as Punchd shouldn't be secure, I just think it's interesting that security wasn't such a big deal before, but now it is, since there's a technical solution.

Fair enough. It's a low-security solution replacing a different low-security solution.

I guess the difference with the technical security problem is that it scales. If I write an an app that does provides counterfeit punches, I can distribute it easily and nearly for free. Few people would go through the hassle of counterfeiting the cards, but they might install an app.

I guess that if this gains traction and security proves to be a meaningful issue, plugging the hole should be easy enough.

Re: Punchd - A Loyalty Program (from Google)

#50

Post by 7952 » Fri, Oct 28, 2011, 6:55 PM UTC

ben1040 wrote: post #17

A frozen yogurt shop I used to visit a lot started using Punchd back in June. The app is cute, but I'd rather just have a paper card. After the transaction, the clerk has to pull out a QR code card to let you scan. The app on your phone won't try scanning until it can get a location to verify you're actually there. Maybe a quarter of the time my phone's flaky GPS has trouble getting a location, so the clerk ends up s…

Having to use QR codes seems like a real annoyance for marginal benefit for the customer. The advantage for the shop is that it is trivial to implement.

Android has started to implement near field communication, which would be much better than scanning a QR code.