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Apple Unveils M2

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Re: Apple Unveils M2

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

5 years from now people will grok more fundamentally that launching 2 process nodes ahead of Intel via TSMC was the big win. For now, we'll deal with marketing-ese about how "other CPU vendors have to choose between power and performance" from Apple's head of semiconductor engineering, and posts on this page like the one saying Microsoft doesn't care and Apple's about to take over computing.

Can you maybe explain what you mean here? I can hardly understand your point about Intel, and don't seem to get what you are implying about "marketing-ese". The M1 is a spectacular chip. The M2 seems like a fine iteration.

They mean Apple's advantage is in good part due to their anti-competitive practice of buying TSMC's entire 5nm production. Leaving none for others like AMD which had to compete on 7nm for the longest time. Same will happen for 3nm if nothing changes.

Whatever your opinion may be about Apple/AMD/Intel. Unfair competition is not good for consumers in the long run.

edit: instantly downvoted. As per tradition in Apple related posts on HN when faced with facts.

Re: Apple Unveils M2

#42
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft is a company full of bureaucrats who don't care about their product. Apple is going to take over the computing world here shortly.

It's worse than that. They're busy turning off their users with dark patterns, terrible UX, ads and spam in the OS, and endless amounts of unnecessary telemetry.

I just had to hack/patch windows 11 in order to bring back "never combine taskbar windows" functionality which existed in windows 10. I am strongly considering switching over at this point. Removal of "never combine" is such a productivity kill that it baffles me how this thing rolled out at all. Who took over the wheel over at Microsoft and who left, that made this major breaking change take place?

Re: Apple Unveils M2

#43
post #2

I can't help but wonder what Microsoft's answer to Apple Silicon will be going forward. They don't really make hardware, but selling Windows laptops gets harder and harder the further Apple gets ahead. It seems inevitable that there needs to be some ARM-based Windows laptops to compete in perf/watt to the M1/M2 but I don't know what company can provide an ARM chip that competes with Apple at this point.

Simply getting functional Windows on ARM would be helpful. The last surface ARM attempt went poorly.

I use a windows 11 arm vm on my m1 MacBook with parallel and the experience is pretty good.

Re: Apple Unveils M2

#44
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft is a company full of bureaucrats who don't care about their product. Apple is going to take over the computing world here shortly.

It's worse than that. They're busy turning off their users with dark patterns, terrible UX, ads and spam in the OS, and endless amounts of unnecessary telemetry.

Not to mention, up until a few years ago, most PCs did not come with TPMs, so they can't run Windows 11. And Windows 10 won't get security patches after 2025.

I built my computer in 2017, and it's still very capable of running modern games, and in three years it will still be perfectly fine. But I won't be able to run Windows 11 unless I do weird hacks and workarounds, or try to source a TPM that works with my motherboard.

Re: Apple Unveils M2

#45
post #2

I can't help but wonder what Microsoft's answer to Apple Silicon will be going forward. They don't really make hardware, but selling Windows laptops gets harder and harder the further Apple gets ahead. It seems inevitable that there needs to be some ARM-based Windows laptops to compete in perf/watt to the M1/M2 but I don't know what company can provide an ARM chip that competes with Apple at this point.

Microsoft is a company full of bureaucrats who don't care about their product. Apple is going to take over the computing world here shortly.

Just a few weeks ago I replaced my Surface Laptop 3 with a M1 MacBook and couldn't agree more regarding hardware. I can't speak for any xbox branded stuff, but any MS-branded computer I've ever owned has been trash. Microsoft might be terrible at this hardware business, but they do have a powerful presence in the developer & business community.

I still feel like Microsoft is the strongest software company on earth. Consider that not even the confines of this M1 MacBook prevent me from being able to compile & run my .NET apps without modification. Apple's hypothetical hegemony does not cross over in the same way.

Until Apple can get me to look at their Xcode offerings and think "wow fuck visual studio, GitHub, et. al.", I do not think their takeover of the computing world will begin.

Re: Apple Unveils M2

#46
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worse than that. They're busy turning off their users with dark patterns, terrible UX, ads and spam in the OS, and endless amounts of unnecessary telemetry.

It's a false dichotomy. You could say the same about either company. Those are the inevitable consequences of proprietary software and vendor lock-in (my original comment was some rhetorical question, I edited it to be more direct and less passive-agressive)

No, you can't. There are no dark patterns, ads, or spam in macOS. The worst you could say is that it has "terrible UX." I would then respond: compared to what?

In my view, the only desktop-grade OS I prefer over the modern Mac is MacOS 9. It was much easier to use and understand from top to bottom. On the other hand, it lacked a lot of features I've come to take for granted (pre-emptive multitasking, multithreading, protected memory, support for modern hardware, gestures, etc).

I do really miss the spatial Finder though.

Re: Apple Unveils M2

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft is a company full of bureaucrats who don't care about their product. Apple is going to take over the computing world here shortly.

Please talk to anyone outside of the start-up/tech world and ask them about the technology they use. A majority don't give a toss about M1 or M2 or ARM vs. x86 or anything else that seems to get so many in the tech world so excited. They care about Excel, they care about backwards compatibility, they care about centralized management. Apple _may_ take over the consumer space but this will be more due to the shift fro…

Thankfully we don't need to trust in meaningless anecdotes about what those in the 'real world' do or don't know.

The facts on the ground are that Apple's Mac sales are rapidly growing and in the last quarter half of all Mac buyers were new. That clearly indicates that something new to the Mac platform is attracting users.

So whether they know specifically about M1 or not they do know that the Macs have better characteristics than in previous years which M1 is responsible for.

And given that in all Mac marketing the M1 has been heavily advertised logically at least some proportion of users do know about it and do see it as a key differentiator.

Re: Apple Unveils M2

#50
post #10

Quoted post unavailable.

5 years from now people will grok more fundamentally that launching 2 process nodes ahead of Intel via TSMC was the big win. For now, we'll deal with marketing-ese about how "other CPU vendors have to choose between power and performance" from Apple's head of semiconductor engineering, and posts on this page like the one saying Microsoft doesn't care and Apple's about to take over computing.

> 5 years from now people will grok more fundamentally that launching 2 process nodes ahead of Intel via TSMC was the big win.

AMD will have process node parity with Apple this year - Zen4 will be on N5P, as will M2. I doubt that alone will be sufficient for x86 to catch up, they have a LOT of ground to make up.

(this is, of course, the "small" laptop chip for Apple, the M2 Pro/Max will add more CPU cores and a much larger GPU, but you can still extrapolate the performance trends once we see Zen4 and I doubt it's going to be all that flattering. AMD has said "minimum of 15% faster", but even if that works out to 40% on average, Apple just made their own 18% leap, and the current architectural gap is much larger than 22% according to SPEC2017 benchmarks.)

It's not all just "apple wants to go bigger" either - Apple's cores are quite svelte in terms of transistor count as well, they're in between Zen3 and Alder Lake transistor count (this is supposition, but I think they would still be slightly smaller than Alder Lake even if you removed the AVX-512 support from Alder Lake). Most of their transistors go towards a truly titanic GPU, the cores themselves are fairly small (the efficiency cores in particular are impressively small for the performance they give).

And yes, of course "Apple has chosen to target slightly lower clock rates with really high IPC", but that is enabled by design decisions that ARMv8 allows (really deep reorder buffer, really wide decode) that x86 cannot replicate as easily, you can't just triple x86's IPC by targeting a slightly lower clockrate and going wider.

And yes, ARM code is slightly less dense - about 12% larger than x86 when compiling the SPEC2017 test suite, according to the numbers from the RISC-V people. That's not where the difference comes from either, it's not just "high IPC on low density code".

I know what Jim Keller said, and he's right, x86 isn't dead, but it's not ahead right now either, even considering Apple is on 5nm. When AMD is on 5nm this year, we can re-assess and see whether that was the driving factor, or whether there are design reasons as well.

People seem to have interpreted Keller's comments as being "it is physically impossible for ISA to make any perceptible difference in perf-per-transistor or perf-per-watt" and I'm not sure that's a statement he would agree with. A 10-20% advantage to restructuring your architecture in a way that enables deeper reorder and better decoding vs x86, seems like a reasonable premise to me. Especially considering the baseline is x86, the quintessential legacy behemoth ISA. There has been a lot of work to keep it in play, but that means a lot of the "easy tricks" like instruction cache have already been exploited just to get it this far. Surely there are things that could have been done better from a clean start.

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