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California Drought Update May 2022 [pdf]

drought.ca.gov

41–50 of 234 posts

Re: California Drought Update May 2022 [pdf]

#41
post #2

"Californians are being asked to reduce their water use by 15 percent over 2020 levels to protect water reserves and help maintain critical flows for fish and wildlife wherever possible." And by that they surely mean agriculture, right? Right? The industry responsible for 80% of the water usage in California? They surely couldn't just be asking urban consumers to reduce? https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/may/2…

Either way, Californians should stop pretending water is cheap, plentiful or sourced in a sustainable way. It simply isn't. Instead of pointing fingers at each other, the best way is to price it accordingly. The root problem is that this is not the case and it's too cheap. And it's only cheap because it comes from non renewable sources that are getting scarcer. Everybody feels entitled to the cheap water and then end…

Your on the right track. Pricing is the solution (and cause) for most scarce resource problems.

But in California, household consumption is very far from the main water problem.

Agriculture is a far bigger problem, and the pricing regime there is often completely insane.

There are other problem sectors.

Re: California Drought Update May 2022 [pdf]

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why we’ll never “stop the climate crisis.” Everybody thinks somebody else is causing the problem and that somebody else needs to change more than they themselves do. The truth is, stopping the climate crisis involves everybody changing how they live in a significant way. Anything short of that and you better hope your great grandkids like eating crickets and forest fires. The sadder truth is that the climate…

If someone focus’s on 1% of the problem and never touch the 99%, the former is going to get frustrated and give up.

If everybody doesn’t treat climate change as a problem that they’re both the cause of and solution to, we’re never going to touch the 99%.

You think these corporations are growing almonds in the desert and raising cows because nobody buys them?

Re: California Drought Update May 2022 [pdf]

#43
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Either way, Californians should stop pretending water is cheap, plentiful or sourced in a sustainable way. It simply isn't. Instead of pointing fingers at each other, the best way is to price it accordingly. The root problem is that this is not the case and it's too cheap. And it's only cheap because it comes from non renewable sources that are getting scarcer. Everybody feels entitled to the cheap water and then end…

Yes, this is a big factor. Water is too cheap - similar to carbon. Both need to be priced higher soon or we’re toast.

Since when has raising the price of anything changed anyone’s behavior?

Oh you mean change the behavior of the poor, not the rich. Gotcha.

Re: California Drought Update May 2022 [pdf]

#44
post #2

"Californians are being asked to reduce their water use by 15 percent over 2020 levels to protect water reserves and help maintain critical flows for fish and wildlife wherever possible." And by that they surely mean agriculture, right? Right? The industry responsible for 80% of the water usage in California? They surely couldn't just be asking urban consumers to reduce? https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/may/2…

Either way, Californians should stop pretending water is cheap, plentiful or sourced in a sustainable way. It simply isn't. Instead of pointing fingers at each other, the best way is to price it accordingly. The root problem is that this is not the case and it's too cheap. And it's only cheap because it comes from non renewable sources that are getting scarcer. Everybody feels entitled to the cheap water and then end…

This seems to be a carefully-considered market-based solution to a complex problem, but there are a few details I'm struggling with.

Significantly increasing the price of a natural resource would have severe impacts on impoverished communities while having no effect at all on wealthy people and companies; is this intentional?

Around 45% of households in California are rentals. Renters are often restricted by their rental contracts in what they can and cannot do with a yard (if they are wealthy enough to have one). Should renters be stuck with extremely high water bills when their landlords require a green lawn? Or should landlords not be able to require certain landscape features?

And the toilets, should the renters living paycheck-to-paycheck be the ones replacing these units? ...actually, I'll retract that question, it's a silly one. On further consideration, I realize that if the cost of water exceeds the cost of replacing a toilet, then people working for minimum wage will be properly motivated to find some way to replace their landlord's fixtures with newer models.

Your examples are mostly focused on residential water usage, which has been about 10% of the state's overall water usage, and has been steadily decreasing for years. I noticed that you explicitly didn't want to point any fingers, but can you think of any examples that might not be residential? Something more specific, perhaps, than "more sustainable farming". As I'm sure you're already aware, water rights are an extremely sore point of political contention between farmers and the state, and one of the major drivers of conservative and "State of Jefferson" separatist politics up and down the entire I-5 corridor. Can you estimate, in dollars, the upper limit for the cost of agricultural water before someone starts shooting lawmakers at the capital?

You mentioned desalination. This solution works so well in Israel, I don't understand why it wouldn't work for all of California too. The Carlsbad desalination plant was completed and became operational just a few years ago. It only cost one billion dollars to build, an additional $50 million per year to operate, and will be able to provide about 7% of San Diego county's water needs. Do these numbers feel like they're making water expensive enough? California is mountainous, with a large central valley separated from the coast by a range of mountains that is in some places taller than the tallest mountain in Israel. Do you think it would be better to build massive pipelines over these mountains and pump water uphill from the coast into the central valley, or would it be better to tunnel through the mountains and pump the water that way? I wouldn't worry too much about the cost either way, since more expensive water is better.

Oh, speaking of cost: when there's a rainy year, should Californians be forced to continue buying water from desalination plants, or should the desalination plants be shut down and then restarted the next year?

Re: California Drought Update May 2022 [pdf]

#45
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The situation is a bit more complex than you're making it out to be. Leaving aside the somewhat unique politics of Israel, it is a much smaller and more unified country than the US--the problems in the US are simply orders of magnitude bigger, even if you were to only consider California. If the solutions were in any way "easy" the drought problem would have been solved already. It isn't, and the percentage of the US…

If it was a scale instead of policy issue, there would be places in the US with effective policy, but because of scale not everywhere…

There are places in the U.S. with effective policy.

Re: California Drought Update May 2022 [pdf]

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is an ignorant and short sighted viewpoint. There's all sorts of legal precedent tangling this up. While the math of where the water goes is straightforward you can't just invalidate prior agreements and rules and whatnot without going through the process otherwise you just cause more problems because you send a message and set a precedent that the state will not honor its own rules. In the long term that is ver…

Quoted post unavailable.

Yes it is. Try and think a couple steps ahead.

The system we live under only works because people believe in it and more or less voluntarily play by the rules.

Feel free to undermine state legitimacy but know that this will result in more entities (and it will be the more powerful ones first, BigCo, city governments, etc) thumbing their nose at the state and engaging in short sighted behavior.

If CA isn't gonna honor it's promises then anyone who deals with CA has less incentive to enter into agreements with the state or honor existing ones. In that future if CA grants someone permission to take X of Y resource they might just take 5X on the basis that CA won't honor their end so why should they.

Any lasting solution needs to be constructed on a solid legal foundation.

Re: California Drought Update May 2022 [pdf]

#47

The irony being that israel has "solved" water problems in agriculture largely, by reusing waste water and drip irrigation and simply have the users pay for that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_supply_and_sanitation_in... This sounds like a typical US thing. Suffering from a solveable problem, while creating the maximum public drama and having the society incapable of reform as a sort of greek-tragedy-background…

Hey, as everyone knows here, I’ll be the first one to rag on United States and California, but Israel has 1/4 of the population of California, has pretty much one religion and national unity, and they get 4 billion in aid from the United States at least. So I don’t think Israel is a fair comparison.

Plus, California has the mega rich who own a lot of the California coast. Which one of them is going to want a Desal plant next to their property?

So when you talk about the “United States” I’m assuming you mean the people who actually control the country; the wealthy.

Re: California Drought Update May 2022 [pdf]

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Either way, Californians should stop pretending water is cheap, plentiful or sourced in a sustainable way. It simply isn't. Instead of pointing fingers at each other, the best way is to price it accordingly. The root problem is that this is not the case and it's too cheap. And it's only cheap because it comes from non renewable sources that are getting scarcer. Everybody feels entitled to the cheap water and then end…

This seems to be a carefully-considered market-based solution to a complex problem, but there are a few details I'm struggling with. Significantly increasing the price of a natural resource would have severe impacts on impoverished communities while having no effect at all on wealthy people and companies; is this intentional? Around 45% of households in California are rentals. Renters are often restricted by their re…

The problem is the highly subsidized cost of water for agricultural users. If farmers using irrigation water had to pay a bit more, they wouldn't waste as much. And they are wasting a lot of water relative to the small amount residential users are wasting

Re: California Drought Update May 2022 [pdf]

#49

The irony being that israel has "solved" water problems in agriculture largely, by reusing waste water and drip irrigation and simply have the users pay for that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_supply_and_sanitation_in... This sounds like a typical US thing. Suffering from a solveable problem, while creating the maximum public drama and having the society incapable of reform as a sort of greek-tragedy-background…

Hey, as everyone knows here, I’ll be the first one to rag on United States and California, but Israel has 1/4 of the population of California, has pretty much one religion and national unity, and they get 4 billion in aid from the United States at least. So I don’t think Israel is a fair comparison. Plus, California has the mega rich who own a lot of the California coast. Which one of them is going to want a Desal pl…

To be fair I think a little blame can lie with the large slice of the American population (which are extremely well represented on HN) who are not mega wealthy but happily sing the songs and lick the boots of the hyper wealthy because they’re convinced there’s something in it for them.

Re: California Drought Update May 2022 [pdf]

#50

The irony being that israel has "solved" water problems in agriculture largely, by reusing waste water and drip irrigation and simply have the users pay for that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_supply_and_sanitation_in... This sounds like a typical US thing. Suffering from a solveable problem, while creating the maximum public drama and having the society incapable of reform as a sort of greek-tragedy-background…

Hey, as everyone knows here, I’ll be the first one to rag on United States and California, but Israel has 1/4 of the population of California, has pretty much one religion and national unity, and they get 4 billion in aid from the United States at least. So I don’t think Israel is a fair comparison. Plus, California has the mega rich who own a lot of the California coast. Which one of them is going to want a Desal pl…

Israel is “74.2% Jewish, 17.8% Muslim, 2.0% Christian, and 1.6% Druze. The remaining 4.4% included faiths such as Samaritanism and Baháʼí as well as "religiously unclassified", the category for all who do not belong to one of the recognized communities.” So, it arguably has more religious diversity than the US.

The US is largely Christian with no other religion making up more than 2% of the population.

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