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Why aren't fentanyl test strips more widespread? (2021)

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Re: Why aren't fentanyl test strips more widespread? (2021)

#41

Post by guerrilla »

wahern wrote: post #20
l0ng1nu5 wrote: post #9

The real question we should be asking is why can't these poor people get access to proper medicine and treatment? Instead they have to resort to playing Russian roulette every time they use. Decriminalisation and regulation are the biggest harm reduction measures that could be taken and it would have the added bonus of freeing up space in the prisons and reducing the power of the cartels. There wouldn't be a fent pro…

> The real question we should be asking is why can't these poor people get access to proper medicine and treatment? Well, here in San Francisco you can access both relatively easily. But it turns out that people with substance abuse addictions tend not to exhibit strong executive functioning (at least contemporaneously) as compared to the average non-abuser. So when you remove all coercive policies whatsoever (becaus…

> So when you remove all coercive policies whatsoever (because of abstract academic arguments that equivocate all policies short of giving out free drugs and free money and turning a blind eye to dealers), you manifestly end up nurturing a base of hard-core, long-term addicts.

Except that's not at all what happened in Portugal (or in other European programs)...?

Re: Why aren't fentanyl test strips more widespread? (2021)

#42

Post by PragmaticPulp »

l0ng1nu5 wrote: post #9

The real question we should be asking is why can't these poor people get access to proper medicine and treatment? Instead they have to resort to playing Russian roulette every time they use. Decriminalisation and regulation are the biggest harm reduction measures that could be taken and it would have the added bonus of freeing up space in the prisons and reducing the power of the cartels. There wouldn't be a fent pro…

> Decriminalisation and regulation are the biggest harm reduction measures that could be taken

It's not actually a solution to the Fentanyl problem.

Fentanyl ends up in drugs because it's extremely cheap (among other reasons). The price difference between fentanyl-laced illicit narcotics and the actual substance these people are seeking is actually massive, and end-user cost becomes a huge motivator for people dependent on constant daily intake of opioids. Even in a hypothetical world where regulated opioids were available over the counter, you'd still have significant inflows of illicit and potentially contaminated drugs.

Decriminalization and regulation have been floated as magic bullets, yet even when it comes to drugs like Marijuana in states like California and Colorado we have multiple estimates suggesting that the majority of marijuana sales are still illicit rather than via regulated channels ( http://www.cahcc.com/Portals/0/ADE%20Cannabis%20Report%20_8-... ).

> The real question we should be asking is why can't these poor people get access to proper medicine and treatment?

There is no one, singular "real question" we should be asking. This needs to be addressed on every level. Even in a theoretically idealized world there would still be a need for fentanyl test strips. Experimenting with "research chemicals" (aka obscure drugs synthesized in clandestine labs) is an increasingly common hobby even among people with access to common drugs. There isn't really a scenario where we just flip the decriminalization switch and all of these problems go away.

Re: Why aren't fentanyl test strips more widespread? (2021)

#43

Post by guerrilla »

metadat wrote: post #27
monkeybutton wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's people out there whose opinions are that addiction is a problem that "eventually solves itself". When I first heard that I just tried to change topics as quick as possible, it was just a conversational dead end. I still don't know what to say.

Vladimof: Unfortunately it's not only a physical ailment. It's a complex mental and emotional issue, too. Hard to concoct a vaccine targeting all 3 axes with current technology levels.

How are mental and emotional issues not ultimately physical ailments? Seems like you'd need to throw in some magic in order to believe that...

Re: Why aren't fentanyl test strips more widespread? (2021)

#44

Post by austhrow743 »

woodruffw wrote: post #18
girvo wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US and Canada: not really. In other countries, yes. Australia's heroin supply is still basically just heroin, and extremely high purity, even on the street, interestingly. While fentanyl does exist here, it's not that common. I cannot give a good reason as to why. It's interesting.

I'm not saying this is the reason, but out of curiosity: does Australia's drug agency/agencies place as strong of an emphasis on border interdiction? A large part of the US's drug policy emphasizes "flashy" seizures of large amounts of drugs at the border, which has incentivized smugglers to pursue more potent (and therefore more compact) alternatives.

On darknet markets there's a pretty big markup on product sold within Australia compared to what you could get from Europe. I always assumed it was because if you ordered the Europe stuff there was a much higher chance of it not showing up. We also don't share a lengthy land border with a country partially run by cartels.

So I would be shocked if it was anywhere near as easy to get drugs in to Australia as it is the US, let alone easier.

Re: Why aren't fentanyl test strips more widespread? (2021)

#45

Post by grapeskin »

rjbwork wrote: post #38
DantesKite wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Decriminalisation doesn’t seem to be working in San Francisco.

Decrim without legalization or free supply to addicts doesn't do a lot for the poverty side of things. People are still going to spend every cent they can scrape together on their drug. We could supply the entire country's heroin/fent supply for probably 1/1000 what the average street user is paying for their doses, and we could prevent overdoses since there would be a chemically pure version of the drug with a label…

Free supply won’t really be a solution and I can’t imagine why it would. Would making junk food and soda free food end the obesity epidemic?

Making it free will only make that area a hub for people seeking to get high. Portland, Seattle, and SF are already hot spots where people actively come because they know they can get high easily. Making it completely free is just an even bigger invitation.

I think one of America’s greatest successes has been with tobacco. For the most part, Americans don’t want to smoke and find the idea disgusting—that’s a massive turnaround from a couple decades ago and even completely different from many countries in Europe or Asia. It’s also getting harder and harder to purchase tobacco in many places, but what kept me and much of my generation from ever touching a cigarette was media campaigns in the 90s that depicted cigarette smokers as vile, disgusting people. Other anti-drug programs try fear mongering with saying one dose of weed will kill you or whatever and people saw through that. But telling kids that they’re gross losers who everyone hates if they use a substance? That has a bit more effect.

But for people who are active addicts, treatment is hard. There are countless interviews with addicts on YouTube, and the conclusion every single one of them presents is “I could’ve gotten help, but I didn’t want it.” You need to make people want to overcome their addiction. Feeding it won’t do anything.

Re: Why aren't fentanyl test strips more widespread? (2021)

#46

Post by ta988 »

rjbwork wrote: post #38
DantesKite wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Decriminalisation doesn’t seem to be working in San Francisco.

Decrim without legalization or free supply to addicts doesn't do a lot for the poverty side of things. People are still going to spend every cent they can scrape together on their drug. We could supply the entire country's heroin/fent supply for probably 1/1000 what the average street user is paying for their doses, and we could prevent overdoses since there would be a chemically pure version of the drug with a label…

This is not as simple as labelled doses. This would reduce some overdoses but not all of them.

Re: Why aren't fentanyl test strips more widespread? (2021)

#47

Post by BariumBlue »

Vladimof wrote: post #35
monkeybutton wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is actually research in that area! Apparently one can make a vaccine that trains the immune system to attack and remove drugs. But it could interfere with medical procedures because of the overlap with recreational drugs. Also the huge ethical and moral questions it poses like who gets final say over what you do with your own body. Unlike a viral disease, getting high isn't contagious and doesn't directly and i…

> Unlike a viral disease, getting high isn't contagious and doesn't directly and immediately affect those around you. I'm pretty sure that most heavily addicted people would voluntary get such a vaccine... unless there's a major downside

Would they though? This sounds like it could give withdrawal symptoms, and it wouldn't solve the other issues that most highly addicted people face ...

It would be great for folks who are in remission and don't want to be tempted back though

Re: Why aren't fentanyl test strips more widespread? (2021)

#49

Post by PragmaticPulp »

guerrilla wrote: post #41
wahern wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The real question we should be asking is why can't these poor people get access to proper medicine and treatment? Well, here in San Francisco you can access both relatively easily. But it turns out that people with substance abuse addictions tend not to exhibit strong executive functioning (at least contemporaneously) as compared to the average non-abuser. So when you remove all coercive policies whatsoever (becaus…

> So when you remove all coercive policies whatsoever (because of abstract academic arguments that equivocate all policies short of giving out free drugs and free money and turning a blind eye to dealers), you manifestly end up nurturing a base of hard-core, long-term addicts. Except that's not at all what happened in Portugal (or in other European programs)...?

> Except that's not at all what happened in Portugal (or in other European programs)...?

The Portugal narrative hasn't actually been as positive as initially reported by the Cato papers that were based on the first few years following the policy change. More recent data has shown an uptick of lifetime drug use and an increasing trend of drug deaths that doesn't really support the initially successful picture of their program.

One of the challenges with interpreting the Portugal data is that they had relatively low drug use to begin with. The initial declarations of victory for their decriminalization programs were based on relatively small numbers and sample sizes that wouldn't pass muster in more rigorous analysis.

I know the narrative about Portugal was set years ago by the Cato papers and a few authors, but it isn't really the success story that it's made out to be. It did, however, reduce the number of drug-related prosecutions, though that's an obvious downstream effect of removing a class of drug-related offenses.

Re: Why aren't fentanyl test strips more widespread? (2021)

#50

Post by monkeybutton »

Vladimof wrote: post #35
monkeybutton wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is actually research in that area! Apparently one can make a vaccine that trains the immune system to attack and remove drugs. But it could interfere with medical procedures because of the overlap with recreational drugs. Also the huge ethical and moral questions it poses like who gets final say over what you do with your own body. Unlike a viral disease, getting high isn't contagious and doesn't directly and i…

> Unlike a viral disease, getting high isn't contagious and doesn't directly and immediately affect those around you. I'm pretty sure that most heavily addicted people would voluntary get such a vaccine... unless there's a major downside

Voluntarily taking it isn't such an issue. It's when the state imposes it (ie. 10 year sentence for a related crime OR take this vaccine and get out early) or the case of a parent getting their child to take it. Does a parent have a right to take away a child's ability to get high? Irreversibly and lasting into adulthood for said child? Even if it's "for their own good" and in the face of changing legal landscape where it may not be a criminalized activity in future like with cannabis?
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