Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ten years of trying to meditate

ammarmian.substack.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 147 posts

Re: Ten years of trying to meditate

#41

Post by xyproto »

bowsamic wrote: post #19
lpcrealmadrid wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Author here. This is so spot on. I spent years avoiding the traditional practices/concepts because of a desire to be Someone Special (spiritual materialism). Burning that desire is probably one of the more profound early experiences of formal practice I’ve had with a teacher and a community. Wish I had the humility to avoid those 10 wandering years.

Those 10 wandering years led you here, and you’ll have many millions more of them

Why are you so sure he'll have many millions more years?

Re: Ten years of trying to meditate

#42

Post by selykg »

vorpalhex wrote: post #30
sabellito wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to call bs on your claim that you "personally know two people who went into severe psychosis and depression". Since we're in "my personal experience"-land, I've been meditating and have been around people who meditate daily for 26 years. Never seen or heard about anything close to what you describe.

Out of a study of about a thousand people who were asked to start a daily meditation process (with weekly check-ins), about 20% reported at least one negative episode. Now, that included everything from "feeling sad" to full blown panic attack. I'll see if I can dig up that particular study. Here is a similar one which tracked longterm meditators: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1428622/ > However, of the twenty-seve…

27 subjects is a pretty low number of people to base this one. In any scientific paper, doesn't Hacker News get super uppity about the small number? I seem to think this one should be treated the same way.

Re: Ten years of trying to meditate

#43

Post by bowsamic »

d82nsjk9 wrote: post #24
bowsamic wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it will break down your values. Unfortunately if you have the taste of bodhicitta: the mind that wants to awaken and liberate yourself and others from suffering, then you will mostly be forced to do it. I don’t recommend meditation or Buddhism for all, it will change your life in many ways that you will consider bad from your current point of view. Less motivation for tackling stressful tasks, less romantic atta…

> Less motivation for tackling stressful tasks, less romantic attachment, less hunger for new experiences, often an increased neurosis, etc. Bold statement that piqued my interest. Do you have backing sources or pointers to this topic?

Hmm not really, just the general side effects that cause people to go deeper into the practise. I saw a study that said that meditation can increase selfishness or neurosis, but other than that I only have anecdotal evidence. The whole thing is about realising your attachments are fake, and that so is your perception of the world, and realising that on a deep level. Obviously priorities will shift due to this

Re: Ten years of trying to meditate

#44

Post by bowsamic »

roody15 wrote: post #28
bowsamic wrote: post #9

My biggest advice for anyone is to not ignore the traditional advice. Secular meditation practises based on Buddhist meditation take the practise out of its context in a quick and forceful way. Buddhism has had 2500 years to slowly develop and work out what works and what does not. It is quite dangerous to take it and call the parts that do not immediately appeal to the secular western mind, like devotion, worship, c…

Disclaimer: This is probably going to make me sound crazy but perhaps it’s fitting. In a deeply meditative state you can open up yourself to a spiritual state of perception. In this transcendental state you can attract other spiritual and ethereal entities. Not all of which are benevolent. Lots of the meditative mantras, prayers and rituals perhaps are meant to ward off negative entities and even perhaps attract comp…

Yes, in the realm of emptiness (which we are never apart from) we can directly touch Buddhas and bodhisattvas, since we are never separate from them anyway. Buddhist practise helps us see this directly

Re: Ten years of trying to meditate

#45

Post by Enginerrrd »

Hasu wrote: post #32
bowsamic wrote: post #9

My biggest advice for anyone is to not ignore the traditional advice. Secular meditation practises based on Buddhist meditation take the practise out of its context in a quick and forceful way. Buddhism has had 2500 years to slowly develop and work out what works and what does not. It is quite dangerous to take it and call the parts that do not immediately appeal to the secular western mind, like devotion, worship, c…

I've been noticing an increasing trend of people saying things like this, and I don't get it. Meditation has many forms and traditions, within and without Buddhism. Which ones are "safe" and which ones aren't? Is using Headspace twice a week enough to be dangerous, or is there some lower bound where meditation practice without Buddhist beliefs switches from harmless to dangerous? And are Hindu or Christian meditation…

>That's an extreme claim that requires a lot of evidence.

For what it's worth, I Don't think it's an extreme claim at all.

The potential for ill-effects from more extreme efforts in Meditation is starting to be documented by western scientists. A lot of adverse outcomes aren't only possible, but actually quite common.

I personally had ZERO prior mental health issues, but after 3-4 months of meditating 30-90 minutes everyday in addition to fairly intense mindfulness practice throughout the day, I started to experience a lot of issues: strange emotional outbursts disconnected from any memory or thought, anger management issues, tension headaches, depression, etc.

These ultimately only resolved by stopping meditation entirely for a long time and only carefully reintroducing it in smaller less frequent doses.

It's really not all sunshine and rainbows.

Re: Ten years of trying to meditate

#46

Post by bowsamic »

selykg wrote: post #42
vorpalhex wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of a study of about a thousand people who were asked to start a daily meditation process (with weekly check-ins), about 20% reported at least one negative episode. Now, that included everything from "feeling sad" to full blown panic attack. I'll see if I can dig up that particular study. Here is a similar one which tracked longterm meditators: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1428622/ > However, of the twenty-seve…

27 subjects is a pretty low number of people to base this one. In any scientific paper, doesn't Hacker News get super uppity about the small number? I seem to think this one should be treated the same way.

I think we should generally be risk averse when the stakes are high. Telling someone to meditate is like telling them to trip, but without them even realising it is a trip, building up over time. It is quite dangerous. I mentioned those two people who had issues but I have others, maybe four or five, who are unsure if they would have embarked on this experience if they knew

Re: Ten years of trying to meditate

#47

Post by givemeethekeys »

cm2012 wrote: post #31

When I was 12-13 I used to have trouble falling asleep, since I'd be thinking of anything stressful from the day. I fixed it with a form of meditation - thinking about nothing was impossible, I forced myself to think of fantasies when I'm trying to go to sleep instead of anything real. It has worked well for me for 20 years.

I fall asleep by thinking of me on the perfect beach at sunset with my best friend. Works like a charm.

Re: Ten years of trying to meditate

#48

Post by bowsamic »

Enginerrrd wrote: post #45
Hasu wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been noticing an increasing trend of people saying things like this, and I don't get it. Meditation has many forms and traditions, within and without Buddhism. Which ones are "safe" and which ones aren't? Is using Headspace twice a week enough to be dangerous, or is there some lower bound where meditation practice without Buddhist beliefs switches from harmless to dangerous? And are Hindu or Christian meditation…

>That's an extreme claim that requires a lot of evidence. For what it's worth, I Don't think it's an extreme claim at all. The potential for ill-effects from more extreme efforts in Meditation is starting to be documented by western scientists. A lot of adverse outcomes aren't only possible, but actually quite common. I personally had ZERO prior mental health issues, but after 3-4 months of meditating 30-90 minutes e…

I also had some of those side effects. I also had a trippy period, where I struggled to see anything as real. It was about a 2 week long solipsistic nightmare. I do think this is all “part of the path”, but without the traditional context, you will be quite lost on what to do next. Even with it, it’s very difficult

Re: Ten years of trying to meditate

#49

Post by bowsamic »

Hasu wrote: post #32
bowsamic wrote: post #9

My biggest advice for anyone is to not ignore the traditional advice. Secular meditation practises based on Buddhist meditation take the practise out of its context in a quick and forceful way. Buddhism has had 2500 years to slowly develop and work out what works and what does not. It is quite dangerous to take it and call the parts that do not immediately appeal to the secular western mind, like devotion, worship, c…

I've been noticing an increasing trend of people saying things like this, and I don't get it. Meditation has many forms and traditions, within and without Buddhism. Which ones are "safe" and which ones aren't? Is using Headspace twice a week enough to be dangerous, or is there some lower bound where meditation practice without Buddhist beliefs switches from harmless to dangerous? And are Hindu or Christian meditation…

I would say it’s an increasing trend because people who are more invested in the traditions have “had enough” of so called “mcmindfulness” or dangerous approaches
Post reply on HN