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Perl, the first postmodern computer language (1999)

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Re: Perl, the first postmodern computer language (1999)

#41
post #5

Perl rose to popularity because early web development was all about text processing (reading web forms and outputting HTML) and Perl made that easier (regex deluxe) than other choices on unix at the time. It became the lingua franca of web developers. Perl 5 made heavy use of symbols so it was visually noisy, and then Perl 6 came along and added even more magic meanings to other symbols, and that was a tipping point…

If I understand right you are saying that the # of symbols Perl employs makes it hard to understand or read, correct?

TL;DR; I would say that you assertion is context sensitive. - For a junior Perl programmer or an outside expert those symbols are stumbling blocks. - For an intermediate Perl programmer and up, those symbols are tools that make the code more readable and expressive.

I got two ways of looking at that. First, I would look at Perl in the context of language. It is a more context sensitive language than some of it's close competitors. When you understand those \ $ % @ & sigils you gain the ability to know at a glance the context in which data is being used. Understanding @_, $_, allows you to write shorter code without sacrificing meaning. Part of the Perl philosophy is TIMTOWTDI. Most of those special variables also have an English equivalent. Instead of using $) which I never remember I can use $EGID, or if I think that's not explicit enough then I can use $EFFECTIVE_GROUP_ID to really spell it out.

The second way is that Perl has a steeper learning curve than it's close competitors. I see this like comparing Vim to Notepad++ and Emacs, or Haskell to well most other functional programming languages. Just because it took longer to learn, that doesn't mean it's better or worse at creating good code. It does mean that armchair pundits are less likely to be correct in their hot takes. They lack experience and understanding.

Re: Perl, the first postmodern computer language (1999)

#42
post #4
post #2

The author misunderstood what postmodern is. It is not the next epoch after modernism.

Saying that to a lingüist it's... interesting. On Perl, CPAN was and it's still amazing, and lots of stuff came from that. For example, Mojolicious for the web, BioPerl for bioinformatics and Rivescript to write silly chatbots, among others. Oh, and pkg_* under OpenBSD. INB4 gen-z's rant on "PeRl It'S UnRead@ble", check the intro from "perldoc perlintro". EDIT: Unless I'm sure the deleted link it's right, I'd avoid p…

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Re: Perl, the first postmodern computer language (1999)

#45

...to this day, I still can't wrap my head on how PHP even got to exist in a world where Perl was already filling the web niche just fine. Also, if they wouldn't have made it too-weird-for-math-and-physics people, Perl would've probably filled Python's niche too. And with that kind of resources focused on it, Perl 6 could've actually turned up into a clean nice new language that would've unified us all by also suppor…

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Re: Perl, the first postmodern computer language (1999)

#46

...to this day, I still can't wrap my head on how PHP even got to exist in a world where Perl was already filling the web niche just fine. Also, if they wouldn't have made it too-weird-for-math-and-physics people, Perl would've probably filled Python's niche too. And with that kind of resources focused on it, Perl 6 could've actually turned up into a clean nice new language that would've unified us all by also suppor…

I'm speaking completely out of my ass here, but my suspicion for why PHP took over the web is largely because it was "web-first". It was free, open source, and you wrote directly on HTML pages, instead of Perl spitting out HTML via CGI.

I think ColdFusion was briefly popular for the same reason (though I think that one fell out of favor largely because it cost a ton of money).

Re: Perl, the first postmodern computer language (1999)

#47
The first code base I worked on professionally was Perl. While I admire it's power I never got used to it. It was very difficult for me to read and our code base was pretty large and I didn't feel like Perl handled OOP well at all. When we switched to Python it was like a breath of fresh air.

Re: Perl, the first postmodern computer language (1999)

#48

I love Perl. I use almost none of its more esoteric features, and just write "classic procedural" code, mostly using command-line utilities instead of third-party modules for anything I don't want to write myself (mainly cryptography), and I am so fucking happy not having to deal with breaking changes in my language, a rare quality these days. I used a machine with a 9-year-old distro on it for a few months, and all…

TeX has stability to compare. But, stability is seen as a goal for that project.

Re: Perl, the first postmodern computer language (1999)

#49

A developer has a problem they cannot solve and so they decide to use perl. The developer now has two problems.

hah - "peak idiom" for that was when Mr Marketing and Sales from Hawaii, Guy Kawasaki, said that on stage to a bunch of developers. I heard it. It was because the Marketing and Sales-turned "software leaders" couldn't read a regex.

Re: Perl, the first postmodern computer language (1999)

#50

I love Perl. I use almost none of its more esoteric features, and just write "classic procedural" code, mostly using command-line utilities instead of third-party modules for anything I don't want to write myself (mainly cryptography), and I am so fucking happy not having to deal with breaking changes in my language, a rare quality these days. I used a machine with a 9-year-old distro on it for a few months, and all…

I don't know if its backwards compatibility reaches into the 90s but I've been using ruby for this for like a decade now. Most envs that ship with anything ship with ruby and I've only very rarely run into version problems.

I think people tend to associate it only with a certain era of web dev, but it has remained a good scripting language with a large, consistent, well-documented standard library for a long time now.

Not worth switching off perl since you're very used to that, but iirc ruby was initially conceived as a successor to perl and for me at least it has landed in that role.

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