Top navy admiral wants rust-free ships • Hacker News Board

Re: Top navy admiral wants rust-free ships

#41

Post by killjoywashere » Sat, Apr 30, 2022, 12:59 PM UTC

sevensor wrote: post #17

This looks like the same phenomenon as the crisis in staffing nurses that was discussed here the other day. Careerist, indifferent management giving the people on the front line inadequate resources and then blaming them when things start to look shabby, or when someone dies. Scapegoating the people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time, who are tired, inadequately trained, and inured to a climate of normaliz…

As a Navy physician who has dealt with COVID and fatigue, I think the chronic low pay contributes to a lack of people which leads to overwork, exhaustion, a sort of "this is my lot in life" acceptance of mild to moderate depression. And you get to the point you just look away for your own sanity. Healthcare workers get paid less as you get closer to the coasts. And military gets only very modest pay adjustments for housing costs. A colonel in Kansas may live like a king, but a captain in San Diego can't afford a house.

Edit: I also agree with the posts about outsourcing leading to ossification and rigid stratification. You want rigid stratification? Try military medicine.

Re: Top navy admiral wants rust-free ships

#42

Post by boomboomsubban » Sat, Apr 30, 2022, 1:01 PM UTC

Wouldn't decommissioning solve these problems far better than building more new ships? Strange that is never a solution suggested by the navy.

Re: Top navy admiral wants rust-free ships

#43

Post by asvitkine » Sat, Apr 30, 2022, 1:02 PM UTC

caffeine wrote: post #34

edmundsauto wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While there have been budget cuts, the US Navy’s budget went from ~80B in 2001 to over 160B today. Given what the US spends as a % of GDP, it feels like this should be more than enough. From afar, the problem appears to be decision makers in the Navy refusing to reduce scope and deciding to understaff.

I think that’s not keeping up with inflation over the same period?

Cumulative inflation is 62% over that period according to https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/

Re: Top navy admiral wants rust-free ships

#44

Post by Issaclabs » Sat, Apr 30, 2022, 1:02 PM UTC

1970-01-01 wrote: post #38

americnt wrote: post #29

Was this upvoted by bots because of "Rust" in the title? Who cares if the US Navy's ships look like crap, this isn't a particularly intellectually stimulating topic, nor is it one that is of much interest outside of the US.

The Chief of Naval Operations seems to care quite a lot. He commands a fairly large amount of respect in the entire world.

If I were to ask 10,000 people selected randomly from outside the US. What percentage do you think would be able to name the naval commander of the US? I'd bet it's very close to zero.

Re: Top navy admiral wants rust-free ships

#45

Post by ciarcode » Sat, Apr 30, 2022, 1:02 PM UTC

Simplicitas wrote: post #40

How about reducing the Navy budget because current spending is beyond wasteful for equipment that's hardly used since wars are becoming so rare. For the minimum set of future ships, sure, lets look for technology that'll save tax-payers money.

These days remember us that is better to have top class military. I’m sad about it, but this is the reality, I guess.

Re: Top navy admiral wants rust-free ships

#46

Post by DiggyJohnson » Sat, Apr 30, 2022, 1:02 PM UTC

kristiandupont wrote: post #20

livinginfear wrote: post #16

Quoted post unavailable.

Sure, and prices used to be reasonable, politicians were noble and children respected their elders.

Is there every a situation where an individual can complain about institutional regression at a large scale without facing this dismissal?

I’m starting to associate this point with people flippantly dismissing a (potentially) reasonable point.

Look, Im familiar with all the aphorisms about ‘kids these days’ and ‘soft men’ and the like. There’s a lot of wisdom in avoiding cynicism, but to avoid all negative observations of this sort is just as naive. Many great states and institutions fizzle out with little fanfare, under mediocre leadership and execution.

Re: Top navy admiral wants rust-free ships

#47

Post by drxzcl » Sat, Apr 30, 2022, 1:02 PM UTC

kristiandupont wrote: post #20

livinginfear wrote: post #16

Quoted post unavailable.

Sure, and prices used to be reasonable, politicians were noble and children respected their elders.

Also, large armies have been vehicles of social change since napoleonic times at least. You bring young men from all over the country together, from different backgrounds and different social classes, and have them depend on each other for their very survival.

The GP is either an outright troll, or has bought into a political propaganda version of what armed forces are like.

Re: Top navy admiral wants rust-free ships

#48

Post by orzig » Sat, Apr 30, 2022, 1:03 PM UTC

sevensor wrote: post #17

This looks like the same phenomenon as the crisis in staffing nurses that was discussed here the other day. Careerist, indifferent management giving the people on the front line inadequate resources and then blaming them when things start to look shabby, or when someone dies. Scapegoating the people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time, who are tired, inadequately trained, and inured to a climate of normaliz…

I know much more about healthcare than the Navy, but it’s notable that they both have rigid stratification between roles. I could imagine that hampering operational feedback loops in normal times, and strategic feedback loops given the labor supply/demand situation in these extraordinary times.

Re: Top navy admiral wants rust-free ships

#49

Post by stefan_ » Sat, Apr 30, 2022, 1:03 PM UTC

sevensor wrote: post #17

This looks like the same phenomenon as the crisis in staffing nurses that was discussed here the other day. Careerist, indifferent management giving the people on the front line inadequate resources and then blaming them when things start to look shabby, or when someone dies. Scapegoating the people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time, who are tired, inadequately trained, and inured to a climate of normaliz…

Then we already know the next steps: ships will be rust-free, but nothing that isn't immediately obvious will work.

Re: Top navy admiral wants rust-free ships

#50

Post by sidewndr46 » Sat, Apr 30, 2022, 1:04 PM UTC

blagie wrote: post #32

qchris wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if there's a name for this phenomenon, but it's sort of like an invisible Chesterton's fence. "Just make them out of a different steel" feels like a idea that is elegant, but even as someone that's never built a ship, I have to imagine there's some good reason why they're built out the materials they are, and why a simple material change is unlikely to be a solution. Maybe I'm wrong (it's not like organi…

I don't know about modern ships -- I suspect a lot of this is classified -- but as an example, the WWII Bismark had a hull which was around a foot thick, as armor. (1) Rust wouldn't go all the way through. Surface rust isn't a problem. (2) You want high-quality armor; toughness is key. Steel composition should be primarily chosen for toughness-to-weight (3) And cost, of course. Stainless would have been expensive, an…

The exact construction of modern ship hulls is definitely a secret, although perhaps not the most closely guarded one. There are plenty of photos of the Cole with a giant hole blown in it for example.

But modern ships generally don't have any amount of armor except against the smallest of gunfire. The idea being is that if someone gets close enough to shoot at you with a sizeable cannon you're already dead.