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Privacy Friendly Apps – improved privacy protection on the smartphone

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Re: Privacy Friendly Apps – improved privacy protection on the smartphone

#41
post #36
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

End-to-end encryption will make a big difference as people choose applications that offer a great experience while protecting their data from 3rd parties. WhatsApp, Signal, and Apple are all making big pushes in this area and working to inform people about why it is important for their privacy. When I explain e2ee to people and how it is used in my own app for contact info sharing, they immediately get it and want it…

> WhatsApp, Signal, and Apple One of these is not like the others. I have a hard time trusting Meta's and Apple's claims about privacy, including E2EE. They're both billion-dollar corporations with a history of deceiving marketing practices and data leaks. Meta's business model in particular is based on advertising and abusing users' privacy. Why should we trust WhatsApp has their users' best interests in mind, when…

Meta and Apple can both be sued or fined heavily if they are misrepresenting their use of e2ee. Signal has maybe 100 million users, but WhatsApp and Apple account for over 2 billion. They've done more to improve security in the text messaging space than any other group. Maybe they are doing it because they don't want data leaks any more than you do, or they sense the trend towards respecting user's privacy and want to at least appear to care. In any case, we should encourage this adoption of end-to-end encryption and support it where it makes sense.

Re: Privacy Friendly Apps – improved privacy protection on the smartphone

#42

It seems sad that in 2022 it still needs explaining what privacy is and why its a good thing. I don't wish to knock this great project, but I'm growing weary of reading what seem to be almost obligatory structures; 1) Initial platitude about how smartphones are ubiquitous, inevitable, inescapable centres of existence without which humans would die within seconds. 2) Tragic self-mocking account of how we're all idiots…

This project does not seem to contain any of the six points raised. Instead it is simply an introduction to open source apps for smartphones under the moniker that they are privacy-friendly. (For Android check out the NetGuard and PCAPdroid apps. I have not seen anything like them for iOS.)

The problem I have reading criticisms of anyone else's interest in computer privacy is that in general most but not all people these days who are using their ability to program computers as a paying job are somehow reliant on the sustenance and/or growth of online advertising or other money-raising strategies that depend on surveillance of people's computer use, or simply people's continued computer ignorance. In the case that the critic has any connection to this type of "work", there is, IMHO, a conflict-of-interest/bias to consider. Needless to say, "normies" generally have neither the time nor inclination to pen such criticisms let alone read them.

It is remarkable how developers commenting on HN are so willing to speak on behalf of "normies". One can see this practice not only in this thread but routinely, on nearly every privacy-related discussion on HN. If normies were given a vote how would they exercise it. When iOS users were given the choice to block apps from tracking them, what choice did they make. Facebook lost 20% of its market value as a result of Apple giving people that choice. It's too easy to manipulate choice and then pontificate about what they do or do not want. This is the game "tech" companies play.

In any event, I think the six points lead to the following conclusion: we need to have (more) laws that regulate online advertising and the privacy-invasive practices used to support it. If computer surveillance shenanigans employed by "tech" companies were sufficiently regulated, it would bring a swift end to the type of "web content" described by the six points.

Re: Privacy Friendly Apps – improved privacy protection on the smartphone

#43
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because for most people privacy on the internet isn't important That's changing. There's a movement online to get people weaned off big tech and surveillance capitalism. The thing about privacy online is that it's hard to measure, since many opt out of telemetry so you can't easily gauge just how many people have opted out of big tech & surveillance. I imagine the number is exponentially rising as each year passes.…

I wish I had your optimism. > There's a movement online to get people weaned off big tech and surveillance capitalism. This is a niche movement at best, ironically mostly followed by people who are already concerned about privacy. I doubt they manage to convince many others into joining them and abandoning big tech. My own attempts at doing so have mostly been met with a few responses: "I have nothing to hide", "It's…

> This is a niche movement at best

No, really you are wrong. I am watching this closely and if you have not noticed the tectonic political shift going on you're living on Mars. Just the other day the US signed with 60 other signatory nations on a bill specifically set to burn down widespread privacy violations. And the US is tepid compared to a groundswell in Europe.

Re: Privacy Friendly Apps – improved privacy protection on the smartphone

#44
post #24
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It seems sad that in 2022 it still needs explaining what privacy is and why its a good thing. Because for most people privacy on the internet isn't important. They either don't care it's being abused ("I've got nothing to hide"), or are OK with paying the price of giving it away in exchange for the services they get, and think are entitled to, for free. This has many reasons, and a major one IMO is that we didn't b…

> Because for most people privacy on the internet isn't important. They either don't care it's being abused ("I've got nothing to hide"), or are OK with paying the price of giving it away in exchange for the services they get, and think are entitled to, for free. The fact that "privacy" doesn't mean the same thing for all people isn't helping. Privacy fundamentalist use the same rhetoric and fundamentalism as Stallma…

> Counting clicks on a button in an app (privacy fundamentalists: "spying") is far from concerning for most people while uploading their private messages, leaking their private pictures or having their coworkers read their messages is concerning.

People aren't concerned about "clicks on a button" because they don't know what that means. It's never just "clicks". That's the problem with privacy. Everyone understands why it's bad when their coworkers can read their private messages, but nobody knows that because of the data they've given up but "don't care about" they got turned down from the last job or apartment they applied for, they're paying more for the exact same items than their neighbor while shopping online, companies are telling them their polices are one thing while others are getting better terms, they wait longer on hold when they call for tech support, or that it's why their health insurance bill went up again.

If people saw all the ways the data they gave up was being used to exploit them at every opportunity they'd care a whole lot more about what "privacy fundamentalists" consider spying, but unless the consequences are immediate and right in their faces they can continue to be manipulated without being aware.

Re: Privacy Friendly Apps – improved privacy protection on the smartphone

#45

It seems sad that in 2022 it still needs explaining what privacy is and why its a good thing. I don't wish to knock this great project, but I'm growing weary of reading what seem to be almost obligatory structures; 1) Initial platitude about how smartphones are ubiquitous, inevitable, inescapable centres of existence without which humans would die within seconds. 2) Tragic self-mocking account of how we're all idiots…

This project does not seem to contain any of the six points raised. Instead it is simply an introduction to open source apps for smartphones under the moniker that they are privacy-friendly. (For Android check out the NetGuard and PCAPdroid apps. I have not seen anything like them for iOS.) The problem I have reading criticisms of anyone else's interest in computer privacy is that in general most but not all people t…

> in general most but not all people these days who are using their ability to program computers as a paying job are somehow reliant on the sustenance and/or growth of online advertising or other money-raising strategies that depend on surveillance of people's computer use,

In my book I address precisely this. What I found in my research is that this is a driver in the privacy crisis, but it's a distorted account.

The software industry is enormous. The vast majority of it still delivers traditional value. In automotive, medical, military, civic infrastructure and commodities, space, pharmaceuticals, agriculture, education and much, much more - the majority of working programmers build benevolent utility for a fair days pay without compromising their morals.

The disease is in the smartphone/web ecosystem (I am simply paraphrasing it's creator Sir Tim Berners Lee), and we should not confuse that with the wider project of computing in general.

What is called "Silicon Valley" (The Californian Ethos) in the vernacular, is an aberration. Its culture is disproportionately supposed to operate throughout "tech". Part of this operation, and power, is indeed rooted in it's mythology, and the projection of its ideals, that there is "no alternative" and that the grotesque exploitation of other peoples private lives is somehow a natural, evolutionary condition of networked digital technology. It's insistence that "this is how we pay for free" is victim blaming.

> or simply people's continued computer ignorance.

Yes, but there's more to it than you surmise. The ignorance has overtaken the creators and investors as much as the users ("consumers in a marketplace"). We were long ago swamped in the complexity and uncontrollable churn of our own creations. Not to realise this is to set up a Machiavellian "us and them" schism, to put too much blame on ourselves and users as exploiters and victims respectively. The way out of this to admit that we don't have the first f-king clue what we're doing with technology and haven't for almost 30 years. The tech revolution has never had a telos, and is mostly the product of bored mathematicians creating solutions looking for problems.

To escape that spiral we need a new revolution of digital literacy. Digital Literacy 1.0 was all about discovering what amazing things computers are, and what they can do. Having now explored many the dangerous things computers shouldn't do, Digital Literacy 2.0 will be about figuring out what we really want them for, and why.

> It is remarkable how developers commenting on HN are so willing to speak on behalf of "normies".

Absolutely. I'm sorry that I too fall into that, and using that word. The arrogance is astonishing. Many of us are still stuck in a down-talking mansplaining way of seeing the world and have a good dose of "saviour complex".

> If normies were given a vote how would they exercise it?

The problem I am alluding to in my original (sardonic but hopefully not disparaging to TFA) comment is that right now it's not fair to even invoke the concept of choice. The greatest triumph of SV tech this past couple decades has been creating the illusion of unprecedented choice while stymying it and boiling down the market to a handful of near monopolies. These contradictions run deep. It's there in the distance between Apple's 1984 SuperBowl Ad, and its bid to introduce mandatory client-side content scanning almost 40 years later.

> laws that regulate online advertising and the privacy-invasive practices used to support it.

I am against regulation as a rule. If we're going to have it I see mandated interoperability and a legal support for radical consumer choice as a better way. The most powerful choice people may still have is non-participation.

Re: Privacy Friendly Apps – improved privacy protection on the smartphone

#46
post #22

privacy friendly but must use github ??

What privacy issue do you see/know involved with GitHub?

Microsoft aren't exactly known for privacy, given how much data they collect continuously from Windows users (e.g. details on every application you launch, hard-drive wide program sweeps, etc). Also with Github specifically they used everyone's code to fuel their machine learning product without asking permission.

Re: Privacy Friendly Apps – improved privacy protection on the smartphone

#47
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It seems sad that in 2022 it still needs explaining what privacy is and why its a good thing. Because for most people privacy on the internet isn't important. They either don't care it's being abused ("I've got nothing to hide"), or are OK with paying the price of giving it away in exchange for the services they get, and think are entitled to, for free. This has many reasons, and a major one IMO is that we didn't b…

> Because for most people privacy on the internet isn't important. This is untrue and the only place I see people claiming it's true (ironically) is here on HN. Privacy is intentionally made as difficult as possible when using anything where control could conceivably be centralized. These services are also made crucial through the elimination of others that are more privacy-respecting. In the case of the internet, th…

I don’t care particularly much about privacy.

This is a nuanced view where there are specific privacy features I care about in some circumstances. But I don't really care about the strong privacy against corporates or government that some do.

This view is informed by my migration from being strongly privacy focused in the 1990s and a subsequent careful analysis of actual harm.

Also I'd note that Snapchat is a great example of this. Privacy for things I care about but little from corporate advertising or governments.

Re: Privacy Friendly Apps – improved privacy protection on the smartphone

#48
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought iOS didn't allow open source apps? How can you compile/install them?

You compile and install them using Xcode.

Doesn't that require repeated resigning/reinstalling to keep the apps installed? I've heard some iOS users complain about the stupid workarounds they need to do to install apps from unofficial sources and I'm pretty sure there's more to it than just installing the app from your computer.

Re: Privacy Friendly Apps – improved privacy protection on the smartphone

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This project does not seem to contain any of the six points raised. Instead it is simply an introduction to open source apps for smartphones under the moniker that they are privacy-friendly. (For Android check out the NetGuard and PCAPdroid apps. I have not seen anything like them for iOS.) The problem I have reading criticisms of anyone else's interest in computer privacy is that in general most but not all people t…

> in general most but not all people these days who are using their ability to program computers as a paying job are somehow reliant on the sustenance and/or growth of online advertising or other money-raising strategies that depend on surveillance of people's computer use, In my book I address precisely this. What I found in my research is that this is a driver in the privacy crisis, but it's a distorted account. Th…

[deleted]

Re: Privacy Friendly Apps – improved privacy protection on the smartphone

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This project does not seem to contain any of the six points raised. Instead it is simply an introduction to open source apps for smartphones under the moniker that they are privacy-friendly. (For Android check out the NetGuard and PCAPdroid apps. I have not seen anything like them for iOS.) The problem I have reading criticisms of anyone else's interest in computer privacy is that in general most but not all people t…

> in general most but not all people these days who are using their ability to program computers as a paying job are somehow reliant on the sustenance and/or growth of online advertising or other money-raising strategies that depend on surveillance of people's computer use, In my book I address precisely this. What I found in my research is that this is a driver in the privacy crisis, but it's a distorted account. Th…

[deleted]
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