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Among Europe’s Ex-Royals

theatlantic.com

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Re: Among Europe’s Ex-Royals

#41

Post by madaxe_again »

Biologist123 wrote: post #37
madaxe_again wrote: post #26

Small correction to the article - Alexander Karađorđević is not crown Prince of Serbia, but of Yugoslavia. I went to school with his sons, we were in the same house, same year - they went by “Prince” rather than Karađorđević - quite a few kids had fictitious surnames to avoid attention. They were regular and likeable dudes, liked skating, cars, hip-hop, bad 80’s movies, games. Nobody cared that they were princes, or…

Thanks for this post. Not standard fare for HN. May I ask - do you ever laugh at the weirdness of it all? That hundreds or even thousands of years ago, a bunch of cut throats and thugs started to give themselves cute names, and - cut to the present - all of the United Kingdom bows and scrapes in deference to their descendants who still sport those made up titles? From the inside - which more or less is your position…

>> do you ever laugh at the weirdness of it all?

Incessantly, to the extent that I find it hard to believe in society in any meaningful fashion, as it’s all just reified concepts stacked atop one another. It isn’t such a leap from “why aristocrats?” to “why states? Why employment? Why three meals a day?”.

The best answer I’ve been able to come up with is security/fear. At almost every scale from PNG tribes to federalised blocs of nations, people rally around the strong man, the protector who exacts a fee, and they follow the rules and expectations set by them. These days, aristos are generally superseded by democratic governance, but the underlying principle, the Leviathan, remains the same.

Re: Among Europe’s Ex-Royals

#42

Post by ravi-delia »

bonzini wrote: post #40
ravi-delia wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clearly the person you responded to wasn't asking what Franco did for that particular coup. Having ceded that one king did one useful thing, they pointed out that another was...perhaps less helpful.

Spain had been a republic for almost 10 years when Franco took power. For most of the years when Franco was in power the king had no real powers even though Spain was again formerly a monarchy. Once Juan Carlos was named heir to the throne, he publicly supported Franco while secretly planning the return of exiled politicians and resumption of democracy. He was pretty badass overall. Maybe you're confusing it with Ita…

I was using "king" as a catch-all term for rule by a single individual. Probably lazy in a discussion about actual aristocracy, but in my defense any sole person in charge of a nation could claim to represent a direct connection between the nation and the people.

Re: Among Europe’s Ex-Royals

#43

Post by bonzini »

hulitu wrote: post #14
Barrin92 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may want to remember the moment when the King of Spain successfully preserved the democracy of the country by shutting down a military coup just 40 years ago. "[...]the King of Spain appeared live on television, wearing the uniform of the Captain General of the Armed Forces (Capitán General de los Ejércitos), the highest Spanish military rank, to oppose the coup and its instigators, defend the Spanish Constitutio…

And before that ? When Franco was in power ? What did he do ?

He met secretly with exiled politicians and planned their return.

Re: Among Europe’s Ex-Royals

#44

Post by Biologist123 »

madaxe_again wrote: post #41
Biologist123 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for this post. Not standard fare for HN. May I ask - do you ever laugh at the weirdness of it all? That hundreds or even thousands of years ago, a bunch of cut throats and thugs started to give themselves cute names, and - cut to the present - all of the United Kingdom bows and scrapes in deference to their descendants who still sport those made up titles? From the inside - which more or less is your position…

>> do you ever laugh at the weirdness of it all? Incessantly, to the extent that I find it hard to believe in society in any meaningful fashion, as it’s all just reified concepts stacked atop one another. It isn’t such a leap from “why aristocrats?” to “why states? Why employment? Why three meals a day?”. The best answer I’ve been able to come up with is security/fear. At almost every scale from PNG tribes to federal…

If anything, it gives you a close-up view of man’s ability to enchant others with stories and narrative; and for you to exit the fiction where you want to. Although nihilism is a risk as you point out, the upside might be the realisation that meaning can be constructed.

One reason I don’t expect millennial princes to exit the monarchy, in the UK at least, is that they won’t be allowed to. Because their presence is a cornerstone to the entire fiction that is British social and economic culture, in which many have valuable vested interests.

Re: Among Europe’s Ex-Royals

#45

Post by Biologist123 »

madaxe_again wrote: post #41
Biologist123 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for this post. Not standard fare for HN. May I ask - do you ever laugh at the weirdness of it all? That hundreds or even thousands of years ago, a bunch of cut throats and thugs started to give themselves cute names, and - cut to the present - all of the United Kingdom bows and scrapes in deference to their descendants who still sport those made up titles? From the inside - which more or less is your position…

>> do you ever laugh at the weirdness of it all? Incessantly, to the extent that I find it hard to believe in society in any meaningful fashion, as it’s all just reified concepts stacked atop one another. It isn’t such a leap from “why aristocrats?” to “why states? Why employment? Why three meals a day?”. The best answer I’ve been able to come up with is security/fear. At almost every scale from PNG tribes to federal…

One last question: do you think your level of awareness is commonplace? I appreciate a baronet is not on a par with a Norman robber baron, but do you ever encounter a sense of shame amongst your peers (sorry for the pun).

Re: Among Europe’s Ex-Royals

#46

Post by karencarits »

danans wrote: post #19
inglor_cz wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is an observation, though, that most European monarchies that turned into republics or dictatorships in the 20th century did so after losing a major war. Monarchist countries like the Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, the UK ... that either stayed out of the war mess or ended up on the winning side were more likely to keep their monarchy. Prior to the military conflagrations that started in 1914, v…

> Monarchist countries like the Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, the UK ... that either stayed out of the war mess or ended up on the winning side were more likely to keep their monarchy. If I'm not mistaken, those are also countries that had already significantly diminished the actual power of their monarchs prior to WWI. The UK in particular arguably started that process centuries earlier with Magna C…

Since Norway became independent from Sweden as late as 1905, they voted on whether the country should be a monarchy or not that year (80% voted for monarchy). But as you say, the process of limiting the power of the Swedish king was quite important during the 1800's.

Today, 80% are still supporting monarchy [1], also among the young [2]

[1] https://www.nrk.no/norge/8-av-10-vil-beholde-kongehuset_-sto...

[2] https://www.nrk.no/norge/3-av-4-unge-stottar-opp-om-monarkie...

Re: Among Europe’s Ex-Royals

#47

Post by jhbadger »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #25
Barrin92 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may want to remember the moment when the King of Spain successfully preserved the democracy of the country by shutting down a military coup just 40 years ago. "[...]the King of Spain appeared live on television, wearing the uniform of the Captain General of the Armed Forces (Capitán General de los Ejércitos), the highest Spanish military rank, to oppose the coup and its instigators, defend the Spanish Constitutio…

Also note the King of Denmark's role in opposing the Nazi occupation. And even in England, in A Man Called Intrepid , William Stevenson notes that it was important that the secret services swore their oath to the king rather than the prime minister. That way, if Germany had conquered England and replaced the prime minister, the secret services could have continued fighting without feeling like traitors.

But couldn't Germany replace the king as well? Maybe with the abdicated Edward VIII, who was known to be sympathetic to them.

Re: Among Europe’s Ex-Royals

#49

Post by Terry_Roll »

madaxe_again wrote: post #26

Small correction to the article - Alexander Karađorđević is not crown Prince of Serbia, but of Yugoslavia. I went to school with his sons, we were in the same house, same year - they went by “Prince” rather than Karađorđević - quite a few kids had fictitious surnames to avoid attention. They were regular and likeable dudes, liked skating, cars, hip-hop, bad 80’s movies, games. Nobody cared that they were princes, or…

Whilst I view Democracy as just mob rule, and Religion as psychological warfare, Royalty was/is ultimate psychopath.

Some of it can be explained by science, like aged wines (red more than white) has a higher histamine content which can increase certain types of IQ, its been used to double the IQ of people with Downs in six months, but one of its personality side effects is it makes people extremely aggressive.

Other dietary and lifestyle elements also contribute to personality characteristics which will be seen in upper classes, but modern living is breaking those characteristics so unless wise to it, you could see Royalty die out in a few generations time. Look at Kate before her marriage and after, I'd say the UK Crown is wise to these dietary elements.

I also think technology has caught everyone with their pants down and some jobs are no longer wanted unless they have an extremely extrovert personality.

You might know this bloke! https://jamescasey.net/images/20210907_192640.jpg

Re: Among Europe’s Ex-Royals

#50

Post by jltsiren »

jhbadger wrote: post #47
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also note the King of Denmark's role in opposing the Nazi occupation. And even in England, in A Man Called Intrepid , William Stevenson notes that it was important that the secret services swore their oath to the king rather than the prime minister. That way, if Germany had conquered England and replaced the prime minister, the secret services could have continued fighting without feeling like traitors.

But couldn't Germany replace the king as well? Maybe with the abdicated Edward VIII, who was known to be sympathetic to them.

Replacing a king is much harder than replacing a prime minister, especially if the old king is still alive and disagrees.

Public officials can be easily replaced against their will – the system is designed for that. A king, on the other hand, remains a king until they die or abdicate. When that happens, the throne passes on according to an established line of succession. Any other king installed by a conqueror would be an illegitimate pretender. The conqueror could in principle force the parliament to alter the line of succession. But because the UK is a common law state without a written constitution, it's far from obvious if the parliament can actually do that under such circumstances without consent from the monarch and their heirs.

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