I just hope Kasa doesn't do the same thing. They run my living room lights so perfectly. And I have some random no name garage door opener that works 1000% better than the big name brands, all it does is short two wires, but it's wifi and works over google and pings me if the door goes up, closes, or stays open too long. Such peace of mind knowing the door is closed.
The end of Insteon and why the smart home keeps faltering
41–50 of 127 posts
Re: The end of Insteon and why the smart home keeps faltering
#42The reason these companies keep faltering is that they push cloud-based and/or locked in product ecosystems. Then they are either forced to a) operate on a pyramid scheme where new customers finance the ongoing costs of existing users or b) a subscription model that gives them a strong incentive to keep customers as locked into their ecosystem as possible. Either of these leave customers high and dry when the house o…
I think a big missing piece for the whole thing is the Just Works factor. You're either stuck with cloud garbage (some of which does, kinda, Just Work, until it doesn't), or a bunch of DIY. Meanwhile, with traditional dumb fixtures, switches, outlets, et c., I don't even pay attention to which brand I'm buying. They all work the same, and you hook them all up the same way, then forget about them until/unless they phy…
Why is DIY considered bad? I mean, aren't existing "dumb" electricals also DIY in the sense that you have to install it, wire it in, etc?
I have a "DIY" setup in my current property with Shelly modules behind light switches and everything connected to Home Assistant. It's been rock-solid for a year now and the occasional maintenance I do (updates, etc) is more out of a hobby than anything (I could air-gap the entire system onto a separate network with no internet access and forget all the security updates). Yes, it took some skill to install and configure, but that's no different from installing all the electrics (or plumbing or heating) in the first place.
A "dumb" home needs maintenance as well. Maybe people just have an unrealistic expectation from smart devices?
Re: The end of Insteon and why the smart home keeps faltering
#43Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think a big missing piece for the whole thing is the Just Works factor. You're either stuck with cloud garbage (some of which does, kinda, Just Work, until it doesn't), or a bunch of DIY. Meanwhile, with traditional dumb fixtures, switches, outlets, et c., I don't even pay attention to which brand I'm buying. They all work the same, and you hook them all up the same way, then forget about them until/unless they phy…
I've found the Lutron Caseta line perfect so far. I won't buy anything that requires external servers etc (like Nest). But Lutron only makes a limited range of devices.
Agreed, Caseta are worth their price premium IMO.
The only downside is that they aren't available in the UK, but that's not uncommon for non-mainstream smart home products.
Re: The end of Insteon and why the smart home keeps faltering
#44Earlier quoted context omitted.
There’s no need to use Insteons hub/cloud service. Most Insteon power users that I know are using homeseer, homeassistant as a way to control the devices. The other good thing about, at least the light switches (which is their core product), is that they work without an internet connection and will continue to function. However unfortunately the less tech savvy users who set up automations through Insteons service wi…
Yea this Insteon debacle is a weird example to use to highlight problems with IoT systems. They've been around way longer than most of the "modern" protocols. It was basically Insteon and Lutron in semi-affordable home lighting control space for years and years and years before cloud-controlled IoT and Alexa entered the picture. I'm really wondering how this all came to pass... guessing they tried and failed to jump…
Right, they had this big mainstream push with being the first Homekit partner with a failed hub, plethora of non-core devices and multiple failed apps. I think they got ahead of themselves going into this mass market and should've stayed a niche player, further perfecting their core hardware and focussing on enthusiasts and home installers. Kind of like Philips Hue did but for enthusiasts/professionals.
Re: The end of Insteon and why the smart home keeps faltering
#45Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've found the Lutron Caseta line perfect so far. I won't buy anything that requires external servers etc (like Nest). But Lutron only makes a limited range of devices.
Agreed, Caseta are worth their price premium IMO. The only downside is that they aren't available in the UK, but that's not uncommon for non-mainstream smart home products.
I'm sure you could find someone to reship product to you... And then you'd just need a stepdown transformer in your wall, and to import US spec everything else to go with it. Totally simple ;)
Re: The end of Insteon and why the smart home keeps faltering
#46So do all their products now become e-waste or is there some salvageable value?
Insteon predates internet connected devices. Their protocol is not cloud based. It isn't even hub based, you can pair switches to outlets directly. The hubs try to connect to the cloud but work locally and have a locally accessible API, credentials printed on the bottom.
Their Apps relay through the cloud however to avoid the hassle of local network discovery. So the Apps are completely useless now.
Most/all devices and the hub have a pairing button. You can pair devices to each other or the hub still. It's complicated but works, the App also coordinated pairing and was easier but still kinda janky compared to competitors.
Home Assistant can talk to the hub via it's local API and still manage and paired devices. 3rd party hubs like Isy still work just fine.
Because Insteon is no longer making devices, they are now selling for a premium on eBay because people invested in the ecosystem don't need to change.
People like my mom, who only has a hub is 3 devices, are better off selling for profit now and jumping to a new platform. Those using Isy can just keep going as Insteon devices are well made and will continue to function for years or decades.
Re: The end of Insteon and why the smart home keeps faltering
#47Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think a big missing piece for the whole thing is the Just Works factor. You're either stuck with cloud garbage (some of which does, kinda, Just Work, until it doesn't), or a bunch of DIY. Meanwhile, with traditional dumb fixtures, switches, outlets, et c., I don't even pay attention to which brand I'm buying. They all work the same, and you hook them all up the same way, then forget about them until/unless they phy…
Why is DIY considered bad? I mean, aren't existing "dumb" electricals also DIY in the sense that you have to install it, wire it in, etc? I have a "DIY" setup in my current property with Shelly modules behind light switches and everything connected to Home Assistant. It's been rock-solid for a year now and the occasional maintenance I do (updates, etc) is more out of a hobby than anything (I could air-gap the entire…
It isn’t bad for people who like to do that but the scarcity of those people and their preferences for open solutions means it’s tough to make a lot of money there.
Re: The end of Insteon and why the smart home keeps faltering
#48The reason these companies keep faltering is that they push cloud-based and/or locked in product ecosystems. Then they are either forced to a) operate on a pyramid scheme where new customers finance the ongoing costs of existing users or b) a subscription model that gives them a strong incentive to keep customers as locked into their ecosystem as possible. Either of these leave customers high and dry when the house o…
> The reason these companies keep faltering is that they push cloud-based and/or locked in product ecosystems.
I agree. It's a shame because Insteon products were pretty good for their time, for the most part. Granted, I never used their cloud stuff at all -- only local control (via ISY99 and later also Home Assistant). Though I'd say this was a long time coming; it had been nearly a decade since any new products came out.
Early on, their power-line-only stuff was sketchy and had issues, but my later experience with the dual-band stuff was great. I had many devices in my last house (sold with the house). I bought all new zwave stuff for this house, because of the lack of anything new and I figured Insteon was a dying brand. Glad I did that.
My biggest frustration is there's still no equivalent for the Insteon KeypadLinc. There's products that come close, and even have some additional features (that Insteon probably could have added via firmware), but nothing that stands out as overall better.
The other thing that is still unmatched is the local linking. Zwave kind of has this ability with groups, but it's so much more complicated to setup and still less powerful (eg: I don't think you can set on-level or ramp-rate).
It would be interesting to have more insight from Insteon as to what went wrong. Why did they stop innovating?
I almost wonder if they bet big on cloud then sales didn't match their expectations. I'd be interesting to know what sales of Universal Devices ISY99 (and other similar 3rd party control products) were vs their own cloud-based controls -- I get the impression there were probably as many, if not more, ISY99 users than Insteon Cloud users.
Re: The end of Insteon and why the smart home keeps faltering
#49Every "smart home" system out there wants that sweet sweet recurring subscription cash, but the cross section of people who want smart home features and those who are wary of vendor lock-in is pretty damn big.
Commoditize your complement. Stop trying to make money on cloud services, and open source your cloud software, or provide it as a service for a nominal break-even fee. Make your money on hardware instead.
Re: The end of Insteon and why the smart home keeps faltering
#50The reason these companies keep faltering is that they push cloud-based and/or locked in product ecosystems. Then they are either forced to a) operate on a pyramid scheme where new customers finance the ongoing costs of existing users or b) a subscription model that gives them a strong incentive to keep customers as locked into their ecosystem as possible. Either of these leave customers high and dry when the house o…
A couple of us are working on exactly this, just a side project for now. Essentially pairing open (as in protocol, data control) standards based cloud control and data collection with open hardware that could be repurposed or used elsewhere.
If there are any features that would really make this enticing let me know here or in an email.