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Ask HN: Why do Americans speak about family by their names, like we know them?

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Re: Ask HN: Why do Americans speak about family by their names, like we know them?

#41

Post by beej71 »

This reminds me of something my son Tom said. ;-P

I, an American, only drop the name if it's going to be useful later, e.g. you're going to meet my girlfriend or son soon, or I'm about to launch into a tale in which it would be inconvenient to refer to people only by title. Or if we're on a level of friendship that socially dictates you can or should be made aware of my family members' names.

I can say (for me) it gets "weird" if you just keep referring to "my wife" for too long in a friendship. Sooner or later you'd have to give a name, or it sounds like you're trying to keep things impersonal--mixed signals. "The guy seems like he's my pal, but he keeps referring to his wife as 'my wife' and won't give a name." It feels like I'm not even worthy of knowing the names of people in your family. And maybe I'm not--maybe I'm just your coworker and that's where things end. But if we're hanging out, going on hikes and stuff, it'd be time to put a name to that title.

So though I don't do this (that I'm aware of?), I can imagine Americans putting the name out there early to encourage closeness, that you might think, "Oh, this person really wants to be friends since they already told me their son's name."

I know Americans have the related reputation of being hyper talkative and friendly with people they've never met and are unlikely to meet again. And that's just part of the culture, especially in smaller towns. We consider it to be welcoming, while foreigners might consider it intrusive and rude. I always tone it way down when I'm talking to non-Americans. But if I'm buying groceries, at the very minimum, the clerk and I are going to have a conversation about how our days are going, and probably what our later plans are.

And it would be a little weird to drop a family member's name at that point. But it would actually be acceptable to do so.

Re: Ask HN: Why do Americans speak about family by their names, like we know them?

#42

Post by beej71 »

beej71 wrote: post #41

This reminds me of something my son Tom said. ;-P I, an American, only drop the name if it's going to be useful later, e.g. you're going to meet my girlfriend or son soon, or I'm about to launch into a tale in which it would be inconvenient to refer to people only by title. Or if we're on a level of friendship that socially dictates you can or should be made aware of my family members' names. I can say (for me) it ge…

As I think about this, there's also something that changes in my mind when I hear the name.

"My son can't stand broccoli."

"My son, Dan, can't stand broccoli."

It definitely adds some kind of "humanity" to the statement to include the name, which makes me feel closer to the speaker (and their son) in a positive way.

Re: Ask HN: Why do Americans speak about family by their names, like we know them?

#43

Post by yuppie_scum »

mrjangles wrote: post #30

There are a huge number of cultural differences in the US to other places, with all sorts of different reason behind them (seriously it is like being on a different planet), and the reasons can be hard to pin down. However, a lot of them, and I think this one included, can be put down to the ethos with which Americans interact with each other. In other Western countries (perhaps with the exception of Mediterranean Eu…

Depends where in the USA. Stranger interactions are vastly different between the northeast, the south or the Midwest. Don’t even get me started on the damn Californians.

Re: Ask HN: Why do Americans speak about family by their names, like we know them?

#44

Post by UnpossibleJim »

SnowHill9902 wrote: post #37
kixiQu wrote: post #28

Because that's the etiquette norm. The norm reflects the attitude that someone's name represents them as a person rather than some role of theirs. It is therefore seen as more respectful to use this form of reference wherever possible rather than "reducing them to their role". Pretty much all norms like this are culturally determined with just-as-strong-arguments being available for doing it some other way, but if yo…

I agree with everything except that referring to someone as girlfriend is “reducing them to their role”. If anything, it’s adding information to your relations. She is not just Emma (what is a name anyway? Your argument could be followed until the end in which you can only say “that person”). She is Emma and also is your girlfriend. Would your mother be offended or feel diminished if you referred to her as “mother”?…

| I agree with everything except that referring to someone as girlfriend is “reducing them to their role”. If anything, it’s adding information to your relations. She is not just Emma (what is a name anyway? Your argument could be followed until the end in which you can only say “that person”). She is Emma and also is your girlfriend. Would your mother be offended or feel diminished if you referred to her as “mother”? If anything she would be proud in most cases. |

A lot of this is regional-cultural specific and generational. My mother's family is from the south east, for generations back, whereas my father is third generation in this country from Germany and the ways of introduction are, from grandmothers to parents to me, especially when we moved to the pacific northwest were amazingly different. I had friends call their mothers "Mommy" into high-school, which I thought was infantile and embarrassing and other friends call their parents by their first names, which made me nearly hide as I waited for them to be hit for the sheer disrespect.

If I introduced my mother to my friends, I would never give her name, as that would be considered an insult, as "ma'am" was the appropriate title to be used at all times. Also, when in a formal or unfamiliar meeting, or a less than friendly meeting, my father would introduce my mother as his wife, as "ma'am" was what they were expected to call her, giving an implied layer of distance in the relationship. Not all relationships were treated as though they were going to be life long friendships. A certain decorum of formality was maintained which is lost to a sea of history. It isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Re: Ask HN: Why do Americans speak about family by their names, like we know them?

#45

Post by dsizzle »

kixiQu wrote: post #28

Because that's the etiquette norm. The norm reflects the attitude that someone's name represents them as a person rather than some role of theirs. It is therefore seen as more respectful to use this form of reference wherever possible rather than "reducing them to their role". Pretty much all norms like this are culturally determined with just-as-strong-arguments being available for doing it some other way, but if yo…

I'm American and I wouldn't do this, unless I had just introduced them. I assume the OP is referring to situations where the introduction of the names, if it happened at all, was a long time ago. In that case, I would argue the etiquette should be the other way: it seems slightly inconsiderate to assume the listeners have committed your family tree to memory if they've never met them.

Re: Ask HN: Why do Americans speak about family by their names, like we know them?

#46

Post by dsizzle »

A worse variant of this is when people use a name that their listeners wouldn't, e.g. using "Mom"/"Dad" with a non-sibling instead of "my mom"/"my dad", as in: "Dad is in the hospital." Seems weirdly self-centered to use a name that your listener wouldn't use when addressing the same person.

Re: Ask HN: Why do Americans speak about family by their names, like we know them?

#47

Post by kixiQu »

SnowHill9902 wrote: post #37
kixiQu wrote: post #28

Because that's the etiquette norm. The norm reflects the attitude that someone's name represents them as a person rather than some role of theirs. It is therefore seen as more respectful to use this form of reference wherever possible rather than "reducing them to their role". Pretty much all norms like this are culturally determined with just-as-strong-arguments being available for doing it some other way, but if yo…

I agree with everything except that referring to someone as girlfriend is “reducing them to their role”. If anything, it’s adding information to your relations. She is not just Emma (what is a name anyway? Your argument could be followed until the end in which you can only say “that person”). She is Emma and also is your girlfriend. Would your mother be offended or feel diminished if you referred to her as “mother”?…

"Your argument"? I put it in quotes to indicate it's the attitude I'm explaining rather than a belief I'm putting forward.

> Pretty much all norms like this are culturally determined with just-as-strong-arguments being available for doing it some other way

My argument is that social signals of respect aren't inherent or reasoned from first principles but reflect shared narratives and power dynamics. If you are trying to determine One Right Logical Way To Do Things, you're misunderstanding the fundamentals of how social norms work.

Re: Ask HN: Why do Americans speak about family by their names, like we know them?

#48

Post by salawat »

You probably missed the original name drop, or they forgot they haven't dropped it. If you find yourself in that situation, it is not impolite to ask for clarification as to "who is X in all this"?

The customary response is to furnish the information that someone is related to you in Y way.

The polite thing is then to let them go on with the exchange.

It is not polite to try to drill out the entire family tree. (Unless there has been such a multitude of name drops, in which case it is okay to ask for clarification for each in turn, and an optional "who are they to each other may be warranted just to keep the relationships straight).

In the U.S. this had been totally normal. As it is generally considered that one one is speaking to is the holder of a shared of a shared context. Back in the day, there wasn't a massive infrastructure or mass reproducible mechanism for background verification, and it was up to you to determine and measure whether or not someone else was eorth sharing such details with. It was also polite to decline to furnish such information as irrelevant.

I've noticed with social media, people get in the habit of assuming everyone already does.

Thus killing one of the opportunities for enjoyable small talk. The ritual of the unrolling of family connections. This was aldo a form of shibboleth before facebook and the like, as anyone who knew you through a relative would generally get a higher degree of trust.

This is completely bunk now, or at least far less useful than it once was in the presence of Docial media and OSIntel.

Re: Ask HN: Why do Americans speak about family by their names, like we know them?

#49

Post by j4yav »

macinjosh wrote: post #27
adamrmcd wrote: post #22

Canadian here, and I do this too. Part of the reason is that it's like passively introducing the person, or reminding the listener of the person's name, without the listener needing to ask. I have a horrible time remembering names, esp. co-workers' spouce/kids names. I appreciate it when they do this. EDIT: Western Canadian, and Shauna does this too :)

To me, it comes off as a passive aggressive neg that I haven't learned their family's names yet or something. Like I owe that to them. Seems a tad self-involved to assume that people care about your personal life in the first place.

I’m sure you can let them know you prefer only transactional conversations, as OP suggested, and they will stop bothering you with it.

Re: Ask HN: Why do Americans speak about family by their names, like we know them?

#50

Post by yucky »

kixiQu wrote: post #28

Because that's the etiquette norm. The norm reflects the attitude that someone's name represents them as a person rather than some role of theirs. It is therefore seen as more respectful to use this form of reference wherever possible rather than "reducing them to their role". Pretty much all norms like this are culturally determined with just-as-strong-arguments being available for doing it some other way, but if yo…

It's not the norm to refer to people by their names if they aren't known. Otherwise when someone says "I had to watch Jake play baseball for 2 hours", you end up with the response being "who is Jake"?
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