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Ferrari owner Exor wants to build the Italian Y Combinator

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Re: Ferrari owner Exor wants to build the Italian Y Combinator

#41

Post by L_226 »

tluyben2 wrote: post #22
L_226 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am doing this right now, Stripe Atlas Delaware C-corp but operating in Germany. I could have incorporated a GmbH for €25,000 (goes into an account to act as collateral against future liability) - which uses all my savings basically, or a UG for €1 - but then I can't add other shareholders until I pay an additional €25k to convert it to a GmbH. For my startup, which is capital intensive, I have no choice but to use…

London could work depending on your business. Hope you involved an international tax lawyer; there can be a lot of issues with the German taxes in this setup if you did not do this carefully.

London probably won't work for me. I have not pulled the trigger yet, tbh I am less worried about German taxes than I am running a C Corp from outside the US. Mainly because of the litigation heavy US culture, opaque paperwork overhead etc.

Re: Ferrari owner Exor wants to build the Italian Y Combinator

#42

Post by Bayart »

yywwbbn wrote: post #21
allendoerfer wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are basically describing Germany. I try to put it on first-mover disadvantage to make me feel better: Basically Germany has had a relatively functioning administration for hundreds of years (Italy even for thousands). Compared to something you would design from scratch in 2022 it looks a bit archaic. I celebrate every little step forward.

The US administrative and political system is objectively older and more archaic than the ones in almost every European country (besides Britain, Switzerland and maybe(?) Scandinavian countries). Germany was established in 1949 and Italy is a fairly new country as well.

The current Switzerland goes back to 1848. There was a massive shift n administration and statecraft throughout Europe after the French Revolution, even in Scandinavia. Britain's the only country that kept to its own.

Re: Ferrari owner Exor wants to build the Italian Y Combinator

#43

Post by tluyben2 »

L_226 wrote: post #41
tluyben2 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

London could work depending on your business. Hope you involved an international tax lawyer; there can be a lot of issues with the German taxes in this setup if you did not do this carefully.

London probably won't work for me. I have not pulled the trigger yet, tbh I am less worried about German taxes than I am running a C Corp from outside the US. Mainly because of the litigation heavy US culture, opaque paperwork overhead etc.

The problem with taxes and capital and incorporation is that usually fixing it beforehand is easy while after you start to make money, you are perhaps too late. We went for London because not as litigious, light on paperwork, cheap to incorporate and there is a lot of money slushing around. Not America sized investments but close enough. And easy ramp to the US if you wish. Taxes are quite high once money starts poring in but it is startup and investor friendly pre money.

Re: Ferrari owner Exor wants to build the Italian Y Combinator

#45

Post by gw67 »

lnxg33k1 wrote: post #2

As Italian, when I read something involving Agnellis willing to do something for Italy, I am a bit scared about taxpayers money, like Fiat has always got tax discounts and subsidies and as a thank you has closed factories, and fired people, can we just keep the people related to Agnellis in the Silicon Valley?

It's just a stereotype, come on!

Re: Ferrari owner Exor wants to build the Italian Y Combinator

#46

Post by alexdoesstuff »

L_226 wrote: post #41
tluyben2 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

London could work depending on your business. Hope you involved an international tax lawyer; there can be a lot of issues with the German taxes in this setup if you did not do this carefully.

London probably won't work for me. I have not pulled the trigger yet, tbh I am less worried about German taxes than I am running a C Corp from outside the US. Mainly because of the litigation heavy US culture, opaque paperwork overhead etc.

As a German having gone through the experience, I feel I am reasonably qualified to give a perspective: The US setup is a breeze administratively, but fairly costly. You definitely need a tax accountant onshore ($3-5k per year at least, more if the setup is more complex) but that will take care of a good share of the minutiae. You probably also eventually need somebody helping you in Germany to take care of employment, taxes, VAT, etc. even though that may not yet be the case. When I've done it a few years ago I found it easier to have a German subsidiary of the C Corp doing that eventually.

If you want a more nearshore solution you may want to contemplate the Netherlands or Ireland which both have fairly well developed support systems in case you ever need help.

Re: Ferrari owner Exor wants to build the Italian Y Combinator

#47

Post by gw67 »

darkwater wrote: post #5

Good luck with that, Italy and Italians are one of the most bureaucracy-obsessed country on the planet. You can think you own country has bureaucracy issues? Go check Italy, and it will be for sure worse. I mean, in 2022 AFAIK and still not every salaried person can have a default pre-compiled tax draft that they can just sign on the Internet and get approved. You have to go and compile it one from scratch (I think t…

I am startup owner (SRL, limited liability company). I have incorporated the company in 1 day through a notary. Other activities related to taxes are outsourced by €2k-3k/year accountant. Yeah, it could be easier, but it's not the problem.

If you build a startup and your main concern are those tax activities, I assume you are not building a startup. That's definitely not the hardest part :)

Re: Ferrari owner Exor wants to build the Italian Y Combinator

#48

Post by danijelb »

dmitriid wrote: post #36
inductive_magic wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From someone who hasn't interacted with the startup world much yet: what are some problems companies in Europe would have to deal with? What liberties are exclusive to the US? I'd imagine lots of complications of running a US-based company within Europe. I can't imagine moving to the US, and I'm sure that lots of smart people in the EU are in the same camp. At the same time, I'd be very interested in providing high v…

> what are some problems companies in Europe would have to deal with? What liberties are exclusive to the US? 1. Market US: a rather unified single English-speaking market of 300 million people. EU: 27 different markets in the EU + half a dozen markets in countries freely associated with the EU (e.g. Norway and Switzerland) in different languages, cultures and expectations 2. Money US: unlimited unchecked runaway mon…

I don't think that the 27+ EU markets are a problem. I'm not even sure if there are 27+ different markets in the EU in the context of startups/tech, because if there were then each country would have their own isolated tech ecosystem which is not the case. Most EU countries are dominated by US tech companies.

If different cultures and languages are not a problem for US startups in spreading to Europe I fail to see why it would be a problem for EU companies

Re: Ferrari owner Exor wants to build the Italian Y Combinator

#49

Post by [deleted] »

wlecometo wrote: post #23

Well the main issue in italy is not lack of funding or lack of talent but rather the amount of taxation companies had to go through and the uncertainty behind a big and complex legal system which makes an average of 8 years for civil processing . these two things alone and the fact there are better places in europe to make a startup (hint: netherlands, germany, france, czech republic, romania, poland) makes me wonder…

[deleted]

Re: Ferrari owner Exor wants to build the Italian Y Combinator

#50

Post by trh0awayman »

L_226 wrote: post #16
0xfaded wrote: post #3

If I did another startup in Europe, I would incorporate in Delaware and raise US money from the get go. It's cool to see the YC terms borrowed directly, and hopefully that would be a shot across the bows of European investors. But to really give European founders leverage they need access to US valuations and terms. I think semi-philanthropic incubators like these could really help by guiding founders to form US enti…

I am doing this right now, Stripe Atlas Delaware C-corp but operating in Germany. I could have incorporated a GmbH for €25,000 (goes into an account to act as collateral against future liability) - which uses all my savings basically, or a UG for €1 - but then I can't add other shareholders until I pay an additional €25k to convert it to a GmbH. For my startup, which is capital intensive, I have no choice but to use…

Can you talk about this a bit more? Or have any guidance?

I'm in Germany and wanted to do this with my cofounders, but couldn't wrap my head around the legality.

Don't you also have to maintain a German presence basically? And what are the implications in regard to exit taxes?

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