Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#41

Post by josephcsible » Fri, Apr 01, 2022, 5:39 PM UTC

Spivak wrote: post #12

hedora wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone should have the right to collective bargaining. The US is a closed shop country, which means that, once a union is in place, it has an effective monopoly for the workers that work for one of its companies. If we switched to open shop, then unions would have to compete for membership. Of course, the existing unions are strongly against this. As an end result, everyone I know that's been a union member in the…

Isn't open-shop effectively "no union" in practice? What threat does a union have when the company can just hire non-union workers?

Once you acknowledge that unions are useless and bad, yes, this is correct. If unions were actually beneficial to workers, then companies would have a very hard time hiring non-union workers.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#42

Post by silicon2401 » Fri, Apr 01, 2022, 5:39 PM UTC

brimble wrote: post #35

gotostatement wrote: post #6

okay this is amazing. but wtf is this sentence? "No union victory is bigger than the first win in the United States at Amazon, which many union leaders regard as an existential threat to labor standards across the economy because it touches so many industries and frequently dominates them."

David Foster Wallace loved to repeat the object (edit: or subject, depending on usage) after "which" practically every time he employed that word, which technique is usually overkill, but in this case writing it "[...] which company many union leaders regard [...]" would have helped a lot.

is there a name for this grammatical construction? it's one of my favorites in English but I have no idea what it's called. I also wonder if younger readers nowadays would even be familiar with it unless they enjoy reading older literature, as I almost never see it in modern writing.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#43

Post by jedberg » Fri, Apr 01, 2022, 5:40 PM UTC

mywittyname wrote: post #38

hedora wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone should have the right to collective bargaining. The US is a closed shop country, which means that, once a union is in place, it has an effective monopoly for the workers that work for one of its companies. If we switched to open shop, then unions would have to compete for membership. Of course, the existing unions are strongly against this. As an end result, everyone I know that's been a union member in the…

This is a text-book example of being a victim of your own success. People have had the perks of union membership for so long, that they no long attribute them to the union. All they see are the costs of the union. Also, I feel like it's safe to assume that you don't know any teachers or police officers? Both those groups seem to very much support their unions.

Most teachers I know, and I know a lot of them, don't really like their union because their union is ineffective. If it actually worked for them, they'd be making wages commensurate with their required education levels.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#44

Post by jjulius » Fri, Apr 01, 2022, 5:40 PM UTC

dylan604 wrote: post #37

jjulius wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>As an end result, everyone I know that's been a union member in the last twenty years strongly dislikes unions. Hi! Union member from ~2005-2011. Appreciated being in mine and strongly support a more unionized workforce.

Why the end date to your membership? No longer in that field of work?

That's a bingo!

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#45

Post by bawolff » Fri, Apr 01, 2022, 5:40 PM UTC

Maximus9000 wrote: post #13

gotostatement wrote: post #6

okay this is amazing. but wtf is this sentence? "No union victory is bigger than the first win in the United States at Amazon, which many union leaders regard as an existential threat to labor standards across the economy because it touches so many industries and frequently dominates them."

That's a textbook run-on sentence.

I don't think its a run-on at all, let alone a text book one.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#46

Post by educaysean » Fri, Apr 01, 2022, 5:40 PM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #28

BuckRogers wrote: post #3

I have some family members that work at Amazon, my understanding is that the conditions at Amazon are hard to pin down because some warehouses are run just fine and others are abusive. That said, everyone working a job has a right to a union. Whether there's workplace abuse going on or not. All human endeavors are corrupt, including gov't, business, and occasionally unions. Collective bargaining is something I wish I…

Should also have the right to work at a company and NOT have to join the union, and negotiate your own conditions / wages independently.

Yup, this is just as important in my view. Tangentially related: one of the places my wife worked at had a union that "pretty much everyone joins" because they charge union fees from every worker regardless of whether they join the union or not. I don't understand how they could mandate something like that, and the idea didn't sit well with me. It's a classic case of taxation without representation!

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#47

Post by josephcsible » Fri, Apr 01, 2022, 5:40 PM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #28

BuckRogers wrote: post #3

I have some family members that work at Amazon, my understanding is that the conditions at Amazon are hard to pin down because some warehouses are run just fine and others are abusive. That said, everyone working a job has a right to a union. Whether there's workplace abuse going on or not. All human endeavors are corrupt, including gov't, business, and occasionally unions. Collective bargaining is something I wish I…

Should also have the right to work at a company and NOT have to join the union, and negotiate your own conditions / wages independently.

Indeed. And remember that any union that's actually good for workers would have no reason to oppose such a right.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#48

Post by brimble » Fri, Apr 01, 2022, 5:41 PM UTC

scoot wrote: post #30

gotostatement wrote: post #6

okay this is amazing. but wtf is this sentence? "No union victory is bigger than the first win in the United States at Amazon, which many union leaders regard as an existential threat to labor standards across the economy because it touches so many industries and frequently dominates them."

What seems to be the problem?

There are multiple things in the first part of the sentence that "which" could denote. "Amazon" is what's intended. You could fix this by breaking up the sentence, or by specifying what you mean after "which" ("which company").

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#49

Post by colinmhayes » Fri, Apr 01, 2022, 5:41 PM UTC

londons_explore wrote: post #34

Can Amazon now just shut down that warehouse and fire all the workers? It would seem like a sensible business move, even if it involves a little bit of service disruption for users in New York.

Yes, but I believe this warehouse employs 8,000 of people. It would probably cost hundreds of millions to rebuild it which is what they'd have to do in this situation. Might be worth it for them, but they'd take a huge pr hit which could tip the scales to not shutting down the warehouse. I think it's likely they build smaller warehouses in the future to make a shut down in response to unionization more palatable.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#50

Post by cwmma » Fri, Apr 01, 2022, 5:41 PM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #28

BuckRogers wrote: post #3

I have some family members that work at Amazon, my understanding is that the conditions at Amazon are hard to pin down because some warehouses are run just fine and others are abusive. That said, everyone working a job has a right to a union. Whether there's workplace abuse going on or not. All human endeavors are corrupt, including gov't, business, and occasionally unions. Collective bargaining is something I wish I…

Should also have the right to work at a company and NOT have to join the union, and negotiate your own conditions / wages independently.

This is a textbook example of loosing at the prisoner's dilemma due to selfishness. The only way you get a better contract then the union is if the company intentionally does it to spite the union.