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The Shaming-Industrial Complex

newyorker.com

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Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex

#41

Post by yunohn »

KennyBlanken wrote: post #24
hunglee2 wrote: post #2

Shame is a powerful moderator of behaviour considered marginal or taboo in society, likely it forms an essential role in group cohesion. However, it may well be maladaptive at the scale of global society, where the mechanisms of shame - the 'calling out' of transgressors, the dogpiling that ensues following a successful call out - are chaotic, following no process or moderation itself. The inevitable result is self c…

Quoted post unavailable.

I’m not sure why you’re so heavily downvoted - this is common sense.

Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex

#42

Post by Proven »

tehwebguy wrote: post #26
lazyeye wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Advocates for diversity love all its superficial forms (skin color, gender, sexual orientation etc) and absolutely loathe the only form that matters...diversity of thought.

People are still feeling the effects of an entire group, all Black people in the US, being prohibited by law from acquiring property, wealth or education during the nation’s most formative years. The opportunities afforded to the various groups you mentioned are still super unequal. It’s built into society and didn’t just go away when the Civil Rights Act was signed (Title VII doesn’t even apply to companies of less…

No post body was provided.

Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex

#43

Post by bryanrasmussen »

AndyMcConachie wrote: post #38
tgv wrote: post #9

- So, what would be the opening paragraph? - I thought we'd recall some unsavoury history and reshame that person, but clouding our own superiority complex with philosophical sounding objectivity. - Yeah, that'll keep 'm hooked.

The New Yorker is itself part of this Complex the author talks about yet attempts to speak objectively about this Industrial Shaming Complex. It belies a complete lack of recognition that outlets like The New Yorker may be part of the phenomenom being discussed. The New Yorker isn't some neighborhood zine, it's a prime mover in American highbrow discourse. I have the same problem with any articles about 'The Media' w…

https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/on-middlebrow

>Both Harper’s and The New Yorker have often been viewed as prime examples of the middlebrow: both magazines are devoted to the high but also to making it accessible to many

Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex

#44

Post by bryanrasmussen »

visarga wrote: post #32
tehwebguy wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are still feeling the effects of an entire group, all Black people in the US, being prohibited by law from acquiring property, wealth or education during the nation’s most formative years. The opportunities afforded to the various groups you mentioned are still super unequal. It’s built into society and didn’t just go away when the Civil Rights Act was signed (Title VII doesn’t even apply to companies of less…

Quoted post unavailable.

related: Exiting the Vampire Castle https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/exiting-vam...

Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex

#45

Post by tehwebguy »

KennyBlanken wrote: post #31
tehwebguy wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are still feeling the effects of an entire group, all Black people in the US, being prohibited by law from acquiring property, wealth or education during the nation’s most formative years. The opportunities afforded to the various groups you mentioned are still super unequal. It’s built into society and didn’t just go away when the Civil Rights Act was signed (Title VII doesn’t even apply to companies of less…

Political party membership is not a protected class. Ditto for "illness" (I think you meant 'disablity'?)

> Political party membership is not a protected class.

It’s a protected class in at least a few states (looks like NY & CA plus DC & PR, with a hilarious exception in CA).

> Ditto for "illness" (I think you meant 'disablity'?)

I mean any medical condition that falls short of ADA protection (which also doesn’t apply when there are less than 15 employees)

Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex

#46

Post by yunohn »

lazyeye wrote: post #14
andrewclunn wrote: post #12

Internet shaming is selectively applied and therefore more a tool of oppression and compliance than valid social signalling. "Politeness" and "political correctness" are entirely distinct, and the internet has no concept of that. Or to use their own language, internet shaming is Californian imperialism, attempting to impose it's values on other cultures.

Exactly. Advocates for diversity love all its superficial forms (skin color, gender, sexual orientation etc) and absolutely loathe the only form that matters...diversity of thought.

> diversity of thought

No one is stopped from having diverse thoughts - you can always think whatever you want.

But why do you think you have the right to publicly & globally tweet it without anyone responding to it? Are you looking solely for supportive replies? And zero debate or criticism?

The irony is that all the people fighting “cancel culture” with their “diverse” thoughts really seem to mainly just have hot-takes that are racist and sexist. Nothing really diverse…

Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex

#47

Post by yunohn »

sacrosancty wrote: post #36
tehwebguy wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are still feeling the effects of an entire group, all Black people in the US, being prohibited by law from acquiring property, wealth or education during the nation’s most formative years. The opportunities afforded to the various groups you mentioned are still super unequal. It’s built into society and didn’t just go away when the Civil Rights Act was signed (Title VII doesn’t even apply to companies of less…

Quoted post unavailable.

Okay, whatever? I don’t see why this viewpoint means you should be allowed to tweet racist things about black people?

Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex

#48

Post by janto »

KennyBlanken wrote: post #24
hunglee2 wrote: post #2

Shame is a powerful moderator of behaviour considered marginal or taboo in society, likely it forms an essential role in group cohesion. However, it may well be maladaptive at the scale of global society, where the mechanisms of shame - the 'calling out' of transgressors, the dogpiling that ensues following a successful call out - are chaotic, following no process or moderation itself. The inevitable result is self c…

Quoted post unavailable.

We are now at a stage where a twitter mob would see "men should not be allowed to compete in women's sports" as a bigoted statement. To the vast majority of people there are important differences between men and women, and will now have to awkwardly self-censors their speech. Or they will worry whether they are actually bigoted and attempt to signal that they are not really a bad person by relenting to the group.

We are also at a stage where a US Supreme Court nominee under questioning was unwilling to hazard a guess at a definition of Woman. The risks for them personally was just too high.

We're also at a stage where I (not American) get bombarded by this ideological pathology of the American Left when I end up on Twitter. How do I opt out?

Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex

#49

Post by csee »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #15
hunglee2 wrote: post #2

Shame is a powerful moderator of behaviour considered marginal or taboo in society, likely it forms an essential role in group cohesion. However, it may well be maladaptive at the scale of global society, where the mechanisms of shame - the 'calling out' of transgressors, the dogpiling that ensues following a successful call out - are chaotic, following no process or moderation itself. The inevitable result is self c…

But this always happens. There is no culture which doesn't have a strong element of self-censorship for at least some of its members. But equally some groups/individuals will get the benefit of the doubt, while others will be aggressively bullied and scapegoated. And some groups/individuals will aggressively claim victimhood and martyrdom while actually being comparatively privileged. The question is more the extent…

Missing the point. It does "always happen" but it doesn't always happen to the same degree or to the same proportion of the population.

The Overton Window can be enforced to varying degrees and contain different percentages of the population.

Contrast the atmosphere during the Cultural Revolution to the atmosphere of a 1990s liberal democracy where the large majority of the population was within the Window.

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