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Firefox now only available via snap on Ubuntu

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Re: Firefox now only available via snap on Ubuntu

#41

I've been hearing good things about modern Fedora as an alternative "boring" operating system. Maybe now is the time to make the switch.

Fedora is really great, but it is a bit bleeding edge in that there are lots of updates all the time. I have found Arch with an LTS kernel (I use older hardware) to be about similar in terms of stability.

If you want stable Ubuntu, take a loot at RHEL. You can get it for free with developer license and it's as stable as it gets.

Re: Firefox now only available via snap on Ubuntu

#42
Another good reason to ditch a distro once honest, well done, but things change, now just a distro that push commercial crap. It's not a bold statement, snap, flatpack, appimage exists ONLY for commercial purposes.

The FLOSS world works with

- devs :: who write and publish code without the need to support any specific distro, packaging etc, many also package for their own favorite distro but that's a mere choice, many others just manually build their own code to have is hyper-fresh;

- packagers :: who package "upstream" code, some are distro core developers who package system things, others more or less casual packagers who package various software they use/need/like. They all provide patches as needed, ideas, well done bugreports to devs, they are not "a burden" but the core of the model, the ones who provide quality testing and reporting to devs, something no end-users do without a tremendous background noise, something no commercial software devs can get, the key to hi quality of FLOSS;

- generic users :: who profit from a complete distro, the one that fist their need most, offering casual bugreports, ideas, background noise as any casual user do, but filtered by distro community itself and distro packager the best kind of "data lake" that matched to packages form the best kind of automated expert system;

"modern" app-only packages serve a sole purpose: cut the packagers, cut off the distro variety pushing distros to mere cargo ship of apps, well separating "code producer" to "customers", something harmful for FLOSS but vital for commerce, the sole way a proprietary software house to stay afloat without the need to give code to a community, without the need of a community that help, of course, but also demand and pretend useful features and not anti-users lock-in.

IMVHO FSF should write a formal statements: supporting those limited and limiting (they can't work at system level) package systems means supporting commercial crap against FLOSS so distro who choose them must be considered Troy Horses in the FLOSS land. Unfortunately FSF receive too many funds by some interested party so I doubt that happen and that's another good reason to discuss the actual FLOSS sorry state reviving classic models from usenet to email-based development, modernized in UI/frontends terms for young devs, with modern video-tutorials etc, but pushed as much as possible to teach people the FLOSS model not the commercial model in disguise.

Re: Firefox now only available via snap on Ubuntu

#43

There's a very strong reaction here from users, but overall if more software became snap-only (or FlatPak-only, or anything-only), it would solve one of Linux's biggest pain points as a software developer. MSI on Windows is completely fucked, PKG on Mac has a few footguns, but at least they're universal, decades-old standards supported by mature tooling. You release an MSI/PKG, and you're done. Works on every Windows…

Snap is not a standard, and never will be (RedHat will always ship flatpak for example). So Snap is no universal solution. At the same time snap packages have serious downsides for end users.

I think this comment demonstrates the parent’s point.

Re: Firefox now only available via snap on Ubuntu

#44

There's a very strong reaction here from users, but overall if more software became snap-only (or FlatPak-only, or anything-only), it would solve one of Linux's biggest pain points as a software developer. MSI on Windows is completely fucked, PKG on Mac has a few footguns, but at least they're universal, decades-old standards supported by mature tooling. You release an MSI/PKG, and you're done. Works on every Windows…

> On Linux, an OS with 3% market share, there are more competing standards to count: Deb, RPM, snap, FlatPak, AUR, AppImage and probably a dozen other semi-popular ones.

AUR is explicitly a community-driven effort. The others are packing standards, some of which (like DEB and RPM) are also used in community-driven efforts. Debian and RedHat derivatives have repositories that use DEB and RPM, respectively. There's not a lot of bike-shedding, here. Availability of functional software is a pretty big feature of Linux distributions.

And there is a big difference between those community efforts and the likes of Snap, AppImage, and FlatPack, which are developer-centric. User preferences on software distribution aren't always or even usually based on irrelvent arguments, but fundamental ones. The community efforts centralize dealing with compatibility and, to an extent, security with community standards, while the developer-centric model largely leaves this work to software developers alone. This is a meaningful distinction.

Re: Firefox now only available via snap on Ubuntu

#45
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would highly recommend Linux Mint as an alternative. (Cinnamon has my preference) So far they are still kind of corporate free in the spirit of doing a desktop distribution keeping things as a normal or dev user would expect without pushing stupid changes in order to advance a corporate agenda. Also, they are currently based on Ubuntu that they debloat but there is a debian based variant (LMDE) that show future per…

Do they take a stance against snap?

Yes

https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=3906

Re: Firefox now only available via snap on Ubuntu

#46
post #9

... on our systems we removed snapd on purpose, because we only have problems with it (we have NFS-mounted homes, and many snap packages don't work in this configuration)... now Firefox on snap doesn't sound good for us.

Snap gives all kind of headaches. I remember trying VSCode and I had problems working with files normally. I asked for help and I got quite a bit of backlash because I didn't wan't to deal with another layer of configuring a system just to access to my local files, and even after that you won't get the same experience. But apparently I'm some bastard n00b that does not care about security enough! Can you imagine tryi…

I don't know what kind of hoops Snap require to access files. Flatpak, however, has a pretty simple system for a fully sandboxed app to open a file or a directory: it just opens a file or directory picker, you pick a file or directory, and the app gets access to that file or directory without getting access to anything outside what you picked. Behind the scenes this is done via the XDG Portal system, but that's irrelevant to the end user who only sees a normal file open dialog.

Then for apps that have dotfile-type directories where you can put config files and other stuff, those simply exist in app-specific directories under .var in your home directory, so they're not difficult to find either.

Re: Firefox now only available via snap on Ubuntu

#47
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would highly recommend Linux Mint as an alternative. (Cinnamon has my preference) So far they are still kind of corporate free in the spirit of doing a desktop distribution keeping things as a normal or dev user would expect without pushing stupid changes in order to advance a corporate agenda. Also, they are currently based on Ubuntu that they debloat but there is a debian based variant (LMDE) that show future per…

Do they take a stance against snap?

They're against it; see for example https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=3906

Re: Firefox now only available via snap on Ubuntu

#48
post #9

... on our systems we removed snapd on purpose, because we only have problems with it (we have NFS-mounted homes, and many snap packages don't work in this configuration)... now Firefox on snap doesn't sound good for us.

Snap gives all kind of headaches. I remember trying VSCode and I had problems working with files normally. I asked for help and I got quite a bit of backlash because I didn't wan't to deal with another layer of configuring a system just to access to my local files, and even after that you won't get the same experience. But apparently I'm some bastard n00b that does not care about security enough! Can you imagine tryi…

VSCode was the one that made me uninstall snapd on the installation image for our classroom...

Re: Firefox now only available via snap on Ubuntu

#49
post #30
post #9

... on our systems we removed snapd on purpose, because we only have problems with it (we have NFS-mounted homes, and many snap packages don't work in this configuration)... now Firefox on snap doesn't sound good for us.

I couldn’t save files from Firefox to an NFS-mounted folder inside of my home directory with the snap version. I would have figured that was something that wouldn’t make it through testing.

My impression is that many configurations not commonly used by home users (but used by power users, schools, companies, etc.) are not properly tested in Ubuntu. In the past we had a lot of problems with pam_unix2, which was the only module at that time which could properly handle NIS passwords and password changes, we ended up recompiling the package as there no reactions to bug reports...

Re: Firefox now only available via snap on Ubuntu

#50

There's a very strong reaction here from users, but overall if more software became snap-only (or FlatPak-only, or anything-only), it would solve one of Linux's biggest pain points as a software developer. MSI on Windows is completely fucked, PKG on Mac has a few footguns, but at least they're universal, decades-old standards supported by mature tooling. You release an MSI/PKG, and you're done. Works on every Windows…

This is really overcomplicating it. Most mainstream end user Linux programs - including Firefox [0] - are distributed through archives you just unpack and run the binary inside, same as most Windows freeware. AppImages are just self-extracting versions of this. Most of the other formats you mention are for distro package managers - these aren't distribution formats and it's not the responsibility of the program authors to package for every distro, nor is it required for a package to be in repositories for people to run it.

Just ship an ELF binary in an archive. Include any files and libraries you need. Compile against the oldest glibc found in any system you care about supporting. That's all you need.

[0] https://download-installer.cdn.mozilla.net/pub/firefox/relea...

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