The sunny side of firing someone • Hacker News Board

Re: The sunny side of firing someone

#41

Post by gkop » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 6:03 PM UTC

dccoolgai wrote: post #17

I was in "position 3" about a year-and-a-half ago. I got over the shame / self-worth issues, but honestly there were a couple of betrayal-of-friendship issues from people I considered pretty close friends where it came out that what they were saying to management and each other wasn't what they were saying to me. I even asked on a couple occasions to sit down and tell me what I could do better... Got a huge pay incre…

The bittersweet aspect of this scenario in my experience, is that time heals some wounds only. With time, the friendship may survive. But it’ll never be the same of course. Neither party will want to revisit the topic of the exit from the organization, because it makes them both uncomfortable. On the sad side, there’s no chance of closure. But on the bright side, your friendship overcame some serious challenges, which speaks to your character and helps restore confidence. (I’m not assuming your friendships will survive in some form in your case, but am hopeful for you)

Re: The sunny side of firing someone

#42

Post by kalimanzaro » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 6:03 PM UTC

andy_ppp wrote: post #30

mkl95 wrote: post #22

Back when I was a junior developer I used to think tech companies -even the smallest ones- generally had some kind of reasonably accurate performance review process, where engineers who were underperforming for a while were eventually weeded out. In my experience ever since, that's simply not true. There are "teflon engineers" out there who can get virtually nothing done and make one mistake after another, and get aw…

Smart, gets things done on time, pleasant to work with. Pick any two and you’ll do fine. Neil Gaiman’s commencement speech. I think if two are lacking for a while you get fired…

Something tells me in the anecdata above, the unfirable characters involved picked 1 _at most_:

The teflon engineers don't seem smart and probably can't get things done on time if at all.

While the sensitive engineer seems unpleasant to work with, while not contributing at all.

Neil Gaiman has a knack of saying immensely compelling stuff, that's all there is.

Re: The sunny side of firing someone

#43

Post by beebeepka » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 6:04 PM UTC

thrower123 wrote: post #8

The best part is you don't ever have to see their face or listen to their voice again. By the time you have to fire somebody, that's usually a huge relief.

I hope that's sarcasm. Enjoying that sort of thing is not healthy. Unless the person being fired is a literal enemy of yours

Re: The sunny side of firing someone

#44

Post by kjgkjhfkjf » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 6:04 PM UTC

mgomez wrote: post #9

> Bob did well on our interviews and was hired as a software developer in charge of infrastructure components. But it soon became apparent that his development habits were very heavily biased towards the hacking end of the spectrum. I'm primarily a self-taught developer. Can anyone recommend some resources (e.g., books about professional software engineering practices) so that I don't end up like Bob?

Code quality can be a religious issue for some people, and some teams have somewhat strange ideas on the subject that they've agreed to agree about despite the ideas not being reasonable or valid.

Perhaps Bob was an engineer with a long record of success in other teams, who was surprised and justifiably defensive when his colleagues weren't happy with his work and demanded he do things differently for vague reasons that didn't make sense.

He's probably much happier now that he's in a more compatible team. Perhaps he's the guy in the photo.

Re: The sunny side of firing someone

#45

Post by deltaoneseven » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 6:06 PM UTC

The article fails to address when the firing is actually wrong and incorrect.

I work at anduril and I know of a new manager who 6 months into the job fired 2 people and had one person quit because he couldn't handle dealing with him.

The manager obviously is blind to see the statistical significance of that many people gone in 6 months. He likely views it as a performance problem of 3 people rather then the more likely 'him' problem.

Keep in mind if you're fired it has hugely to do with the perspective and the personality of the people judging your work. Sometimes that judgement is valid, but just as often it is not valid at all. Additionally keep in mind the political motivations and machinations going on in the background. Along with firing people for political reasons... Many people not suited to be managers.

If you find yourself in that situation where you are fired do not ignore the reasoning behind why your manager fired you but also be sure to weigh it against many other opinions because often your manager is making an unjustified decision.

A lot of the stories in this article are justified though. One person was judged and placed under several people so they could all make an accurate assessment before piling the plug.

Re: The sunny side of firing someone

#46

Post by jtwebman » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 6:12 PM UTC

mgomez wrote: post #9

> Bob did well on our interviews and was hired as a software developer in charge of infrastructure components. But it soon became apparent that his development habits were very heavily biased towards the hacking end of the spectrum. I'm primarily a self-taught developer. Can anyone recommend some resources (e.g., books about professional software engineering practices) so that I don't end up like Bob?

There is no book to teach these parts. Books teach some simple principles but there are many right ways to write code. Ask your manager and coworkers for real feedback. Let them know that you can take anything. It even set up some anonymous feedback method. And no matter what they tell you don't get defensive. Just say thank you for the feedback and reflect on it later. You can even get mad later but still please try to see it from their side. 99.99% of people really are just trying to help you. Last look at how coworkers are writing code and how they are solving problems. I still learn daily from reading others code.

Re: The sunny side of firing someone

#47

Post by deltaoneseven » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 6:12 PM UTC

cryptica wrote: post #20

I wish that getting fired would not carry so much stigma as it does today. I got fired 3 times in my early career. 2 of those times I believe were completely unfair, only 1 time made sense because I had burned out and lost motivation (also, the company wasn't doing well financially). In all of these cases, getting fired was a valuable life experience. The 2 times which were unfair, I learned that people can be unjust…

This. Getting fired is largely a perception thing as much as it is performance.

How your manager perceives you and his ability to perceive things and his personality influences everything.

Re: The sunny side of firing someone

#48

Post by deltaoneseven » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 6:15 PM UTC

chiefalchemist wrote: post #27

> "This is an extremely bad thing for the people who have to leave, who in most cases do not even get much warning that it will happen." If this is the culture then the person being cut loose is the winner. Not much warning is bad management / leadership.

This is done because when employees are let go they could become potentially hostile to the company. That's why they don't inform people beforehand of the firing.

What should absolutely be done is inform him of the exact performance problem and steps to improve. An actual well intended PIP and not just a way to throw someone out.

Re: The sunny side of firing someone

#49

Post by sdoering » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 6:16 PM UTC

kjgkjhfkjf wrote: post #32

IMO the world really needs a gallery of images in which people are cheerfully going through dreadful life events, e.g. being fired, signing divorce papers, burying a beloved pet. People could look at these images when they are anxious, and it would make them feel better.

I might misinterpret you. But why do we need to soften the blow? Why do we need to appear reasonable and cheerful at dreadful life events?

They suck. We are allowed our "negative" emotions. We need to allow the shame and fear and anger and bitterness and sadness. We need to be able to voice these. And not forced to hide them for the sake of a society that doesn't want to see these. Or for our peers and their well being.

But as said. I might be tainted by experience and misread you.

Re: The sunny side of firing someone

#50

Post by deltaoneseven » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 6:20 PM UTC

gkop wrote: post #38

ComradePhil wrote: post #11

I wish for a day when if I have to fire someone, the organization that I am a part of has the combined advantage of insight, influence and capability to find alternatives for both the organization and the individual being fired. I hope my organization has the insight to know where the person I am letting go would be a better fit in... and has the influence to recommend them there inside the organization or another on…

In some cases the experience is simply too traumatic for the fired employee, there’s no amount of professionalism, empathy, care, support the firing organization can provide to suppress a toxic dynamic to any remaining “engagement” with the organization. In these scenarios you really need to pull the band aid off and hard-terminate them; it’s best for everyone. And take your good intentions and put them into a retros…

No there are alternatives. You support the team switch before termination. Termination is a last resort option and should only be done after multiple people managed the person directly to remove bias.

I've seen a scenario where 2 people at anduril (where I work) were fired in 6 months and 1 person quit to get away from the manager. Statistically in this case it's a managerial problem and you need to place those employees in different teams to know that it's the manager that's the problem and not the employee.

Simply assuming the employee is the problem without additional oversight is the wrong path.