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Why are there so many bad bosses?

freakonomics.com

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Re: Why are there so many bad bosses?

#41

Post by acntr_employee »

karmakaze wrote: post #34

This hits close to home: > JOHNSON: For me, this is where the idea of splitting out those levels of seniority — so maybe you don’t become the manager, but you become a technical expert and you are paid and rewarded for that — is something that helps with the incentives. What I would say on that, though, is often we have this dual-career track of, “Okay, you can be a manager, or you can be a technical specialist.” But…

> But even though you might get a quote-unquote promotion and be paid more, the technical specialists still might be excluded from high-level conversations. [...]

I hear you. Not only that. In our case - even if by regulation expert track and managerial track should be seen and compensated the same I know that lots of managers not only are compensated in the upper quartiles of the distribution, while experts overwhelmingly are compensated in the lower rungs. No managers also are fast tracked more easily for promotions making the factual gap even wider.

I know of executives that ensure, that experts are always one level below respective managers, even if they should be on the same hierarchical level.

Re: Why are there so many bad bosses?

#42

Post by sdoering »

mattbrewsbytes wrote: post #15

Its because all you hear are the negative stories. As an EM my job is to shield the team from BS, give them what they need to get work done, stay out of their way and not to complain to them either about the BS that is circulating. To an employee, a good manager kinda makes it feel like everything would be fine with the manager not there. And a good team could probably operate without a manager for a while. Until it…

If it were for that a team should be able to see this by themselves.

To me a bad manager is one that actually makes things more complicated. Once you have some experience under your belt you tend to see managers that add friction, unnecessary process and are more in it to feel the power and control. While others are adding lube to the system and making problems/friction disappear.

I agree that there are teams that miss the experience to see when crap is being shoveled out of their way by their manager. And I envy them, as they never had to endure a shitty one.

But from experience I would say that doesn't last long. Sadly.

Re: Why are there so many bad bosses?

#43

Post by veganhouseDJ »

thenerdhead wrote: post #38

I hate to be that guy, but I believe that many line managers & middle managers aren't honestly needed in knowledge work at a certain level of self-managing ICs with a common vision. It's increasingly rare to find "good" managers among the bad. The good ones tend to find new jobs or get promoted and continue to climb the ladder. The bad ones? They also get promotions to take over the good ones jobs and they stay aroun…

Totally agree.

There are also these ridiculous dynamics to the system that a new incompetent manager can burn a department to the ground and then get another promotion for rebuilding the department to 25% of what it was before they burned it down.

What is missing is a type of null hypothesis to judge the manager against. Would the department actually be better off if we paid them to watch Netflix?

This is probably something deep in human nature though when it comes to money and business because it is almost the definition of Keynes animal spirits. A spontaneous urge to action rather than inaction. We just don't like the idea of inaction when it comes to business and money.

Re: Why are there so many bad bosses?

#44

Post by thenerdhead »

veganhouseDJ wrote: post #43
thenerdhead wrote: post #38

I hate to be that guy, but I believe that many line managers & middle managers aren't honestly needed in knowledge work at a certain level of self-managing ICs with a common vision. It's increasingly rare to find "good" managers among the bad. The good ones tend to find new jobs or get promoted and continue to climb the ladder. The bad ones? They also get promotions to take over the good ones jobs and they stay aroun…

Totally agree. There are also these ridiculous dynamics to the system that a new incompetent manager can burn a department to the ground and then get another promotion for rebuilding the department to 25% of what it was before they burned it down. What is missing is a type of null hypothesis to judge the manager against. Would the department actually be better off if we paid them to watch Netflix? This is probably so…

You're describing the Dilbert principle. A joke on the Peter Principle and yet serves very true in my experience as to "put people in places where they cause the least amount of damage".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilbert_principle

Re: Why are there so many bad bosses?

#45

Post by fargle »

throwaway81523 wrote: post #4
fargle wrote: post #2

think for a minute: great engineers - i mean really great engineers - how many do you know? it's pretty rare right? it's an awesome thing and a scarce resource. think about how many you can mention. if you've been around it's not zero or one (yes of course you), but a handful. in my case 20-30. i feel lucky to say that. now - how many great engineering managers have you come across? i mean really great, not just OK.…

Wrong question. How many BAD engineers do you know? I've known a few great engineers and lots of good or ok ones, but few who are actually bad. They tend to not make it into the field, or else not to stay in it. Maybe I'm not looking in the right places?

i love that. same idea in reverse and it works for me as well. i definitely know a few bad engineers, not rare for sure - but several metric fucktons of bad managers - and that's just the ones i've evaded this morning.

Re: Why are there so many bad bosses?

#46

Post by fargle »

mcv wrote: post #16
fargle wrote: post #2

think for a minute: great engineers - i mean really great engineers - how many do you know? it's pretty rare right? it's an awesome thing and a scarce resource. think about how many you can mention. if you've been around it's not zero or one (yes of course you), but a handful. in my case 20-30. i feel lucky to say that. now - how many great engineering managers have you come across? i mean really great, not just OK.…

The best engineering managers I've had trusted their engineers. I think that's the most important part, and that's the part that some managers are bad at. So if you really want to promote an engineer to management, don't promote the engineers who knows everything and does everything, because they're going to micromanage everybody. Promote the engineer that asks a lot and listens a lot.

problem is that only a small percentage of good engineers make good managers. a few bad engineers also make good managers. it's extremely rare but a few non-engineers make ok managers. but almost all of the very worst managers have been non-technical (e.g. BMA).

Re: Why are there so many bad bosses?

#47

Post by christianvozar »

The Army and Navy also realized specialized, highly-skilled, and educated soldiers were needed. Not to command troops but to fly very expensive machines. They are the Warrant Officers (CO1 -> CW5) and get paid well and the respect of those that command without the burden of commanding large amounts of troops.

Re: Why are there so many bad bosses?

#48

Post by torginus »

thenerdhead wrote: post #38

I hate to be that guy, but I believe that many line managers & middle managers aren't honestly needed in knowledge work at a certain level of self-managing ICs with a common vision. It's increasingly rare to find "good" managers among the bad. The good ones tend to find new jobs or get promoted and continue to climb the ladder. The bad ones? They also get promotions to take over the good ones jobs and they stay aroun…

I have a generally darker outlook. Based on my experience, I don't share the notion that being 'good' in any meaningfully productive sense (technical, personal, organizational) leads to better career odds.

In my experience, a lack of spine, a sturdy gaslight, a talent for office politics, and and utter lack of care of the people beneath you is what's conducive to a successful career in management. The majority of managers I encountered had these attributes, and built successful careers on them, while ignoring real world concerns and frustrations to the point they literally had no idea what the people under them did exactly.

Conversely, the people that did care, that pushed back against unfair expectations, that did champion meaningful change were not as apt at playing office politics and often drew the short straw when a shakeup happened.

I could list numerous horrible archetypes, but the most common one I encountered was the Yes Man - when upper management comes up with a new idea, he nods eagerly and pushes it down the throats of the team members, ignoring their protests, and when the idea inevitably fails, he blames the team for not being enthusiastic enough. When his bosses move the deadline forward, he gives the thumbs up, then tells the team that they are going to have to work just that much harder.

His bosses love him since they feel that this guy 'gets' it, it's a joy to work with him, when other middle managers grumble at their ideas, he just jumps into action, this guy is a real go-getter, clearly has potential.

Re: Why are there so many bad bosses?

#49

Post by thenerdhead »

torginus wrote: post #48
thenerdhead wrote: post #38

I hate to be that guy, but I believe that many line managers & middle managers aren't honestly needed in knowledge work at a certain level of self-managing ICs with a common vision. It's increasingly rare to find "good" managers among the bad. The good ones tend to find new jobs or get promoted and continue to climb the ladder. The bad ones? They also get promotions to take over the good ones jobs and they stay aroun…

I have a generally darker outlook. Based on my experience, I don't share the notion that being 'good' in any meaningfully productive sense (technical, personal, organizational) leads to better career odds. In my experience, a lack of spine, a sturdy gaslight, a talent for office politics, and and utter lack of care of the people beneath you is what's conducive to a successful career in management. The majority of man…

Do we work at the same company? This feels too real.

Re: Why are there so many bad bosses?

#50

Post by fuzzfactor »

rramadass wrote: post #25
mcntsh wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I should have clarified. Engineers are difficult to manage (in my experience) because they're smart and have leverage in their role; it's not a simple manager -> worker-bee relationship. It's nothing negative.

Right; more akin to "Herding Cats" :-). But that's what allows each of them to display their aptitude and brilliance their own way. A light touch is the magic recipe. If you look at exceptional Engineers, almost always they were not obedient/yes-men but their own masters and their Managers had the good sense to allow them the freedom to do their own thing within very loose bounds.

When the cats are truly technically qualified and naturally self-productive, the only way to herd them is by a leader whom is more so.

Otherwise the team will never come close to benefitting from very much of the whole members' combined abilities.

Outstanding qualifications and productivity will find a way to be successful even with a bozo executive, and it will be OK for shareholders, some may even think it's the best thing they've ever seen.

Little did they know the possibilities that could have been if there was a leader who could have actually herded the valued cats into the happy pastures where they could really spread out.

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