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World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

reuters.com

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Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#41

Post by karpierz »

anu7df wrote: post #36
amanaplanacanal wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can’t tell how true that is. I’ve certainly heard that a lot of people who claim to be vegan aren’t 100%. Are there any reliable studies on this topic?

Not eating animals does not immediately get you to vegan. Human body is not designed for a vegan diet. However, eating animal products that don't kill the said animal, (milk, cheese, yogurt, eggs etc) is sustainable and feasible. Of course factory farms, which encourages over consumption, are not the way to go.. Not everything needs to be eaten daily. Also, things like 4 egg omlet with a mountain of cheese etc are an…

The human body also isn't designed for vaccines, going to space, or doing math. Somehow, when we need the human body to do something, we find a way to make it happen.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#42

Post by TheFreim »

stjohnswarts wrote: post #25
alliao wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the same would apply to pretty much all animals no? and dare I say plants too?

So we all just starve now because we can't eat plants? I don't like your plan.

I don't think their "plan" is anything, it looks like an (common) anti-veg(an)itarian argument that tries to say that if standards were applied evenly it would result in an absurdity.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#43

Post by ArcticCelt »

Tostino wrote: post #30
bmitc wrote: post #4

> "For now aquaculture is the only available option." Wrong. I've stopped eating octopus. Of course, we can't stop eating every animal, even many that obviously feel distress and emotions, but we really need to draw a line on reducing and making sure that we raise or naturally hunt animals in a humane as possible way. Octopus is one I've taken a line on. Others still weigh on me. "Aquaculture" is being billed as the…

Yeah, i've not eaten much Octapus previously, but I had it occasionally in sushi or civeche that came with it. But I really can't continue to eat it even in that capacity in good conscience. Was something that I had thought about previously, but wasn't until I actually saw one while diving that I decided I couldn't continue eating.

I've eaten Octopus in the past but didn't knew how intelligent those creature were until a couple of years ago. Since I saw multiple documentaries about them and read about them, I would now feel like a cannibal for eating them.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#44

Post by undersuit »

karpierz wrote: post #10
bmitc wrote: post #4

> "For now aquaculture is the only available option." Wrong. I've stopped eating octopus. Of course, we can't stop eating every animal, even many that obviously feel distress and emotions, but we really need to draw a line on reducing and making sure that we raise or naturally hunt animals in a humane as possible way. Octopus is one I've taken a line on. Others still weigh on me. "Aquaculture" is being billed as the…

> Of course, we can't stop eating every animal Why? There are plenty of people who do.

There are plenty of people who strive for some kind of vegetarian or vegan diet, but they aren't not eating animals unless they are inspecting every food item they consume for all the microscopic animals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro-animal

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#45

Post by TheFreim »

sitkack wrote: post #16
alliao wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the same would apply to pretty much all animals no? and dare I say plants too?

So are you saying since all flora and fauna might also apply, that we do nothing? This is the all or nothing fallacy mentioned up thread.

I can't read their mind but I don't know if that's what they're trying to say. The common anti-veg(an)itarian argument is that if you apply standards evenly it would result in an absurdity, thus leading you to question the premise.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#46

Post by bmitc »

jazzyjackson wrote: post #27
bmitc wrote: post #4

> "For now aquaculture is the only available option." Wrong. I've stopped eating octopus. Of course, we can't stop eating every animal, even many that obviously feel distress and emotions, but we really need to draw a line on reducing and making sure that we raise or naturally hunt animals in a humane as possible way. Octopus is one I've taken a line on. Others still weigh on me. "Aquaculture" is being billed as the…

> Why do humans have a complete lack of an ability to say "stop, we're not going to do this anymore". Because not doing things leaves you with a distinct lack of capital. Not dragging on capitalism, just being descriptive: those who act collect the resources to act more

But what's the point? What's the actual need to continue to acquire more? Why can't we say enough is enough? You're just describing a mechanism. Oh, I know someone will respond with "who gets to decide what's enough?", but why is their answer to that, "well just let anybody do whatever they want"?

The reason is the human condition for power and greed knows no bounds, and multi-millionaires and billionaires who like to play Sim City get to decide things for the rest of us. We're apes with technology and economics.

I mean we still have orcas in nothing more than shallow swimming pools. Orcas are the size of school buses, can weigh up to 10 tons, are likely the greatest predator ever to be on Earth, one of the most intelligent and emotional animals, and we've kept one of them in a single tank, alone, for over three decades and has been in captivity for over five decades. Her name is Lolita and her last pool partner was in the 1980s, where he committed suicide by ramming his head over and over into the side of the concrete pool. Those two are just two examples.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolita_(killer_whale)

And even in that situation, we can't say to ourselves to stop. Humans are still keeping, capturing, and breeding orcas for nothing more than shallow entertainment. It's really sickening at times.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#47

Post by awb »

vmception wrote: post #33

It was always possible for me to perceive sentience, feelings and emotions from a variety of beings, I don't understand why grown adults are just reaching a cognitive maturity to notice that and making that a line in the sand on whether they will farm/consume a being based on that. These seem to be two separate things to me? Can someone shed light on both: a) why these are related concepts b) your journey to cognitiv…

It wasn't until someone mentioned that many animals (and all mammals) talk to their babies just like we do that it rung home for me.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#48

Post by WaxProlix »

pranith wrote: post #14
KerryJones wrote: post #7

I've had several people in my life tell me after more intense studies of octopi they refuse to eat them. While I've seen a couple of documentaries on the subject, I won't profess to know as much, but the essential argument has been that they're extremely intelligent, emotional animals. It's akin to eating a dog or cat (which might be acceptable in some parts of the world, but pretty shunned in the west). It's convinc…

Even cows are extremely intelligent and emotional animals. Did you stop eating them?

For me, the answer was yes. I stopped eating pigs first, and then cows and other mammals, and then octopi (octopodes?). I've been cutting back further on chicken and fish, too, though I eat a lot of eggs and some dairy still.

I don't know that it's morally right or something, but it doesn't cost much and the potential upside seems high enough to do it.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#49

Post by throwaway09223 »

causasui wrote: post #23
nefitty wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I commend you for your decision. I want to add that framing my ideas about animal suffering in an elastic way makes it easier for me to make incremental changes. An animal is either alive or dead. Maybe eating vegetarian once a week will save a life down the line. I urge everyone to resist the all-or-nothing approach, especially on such an important aspect of our ethical choices. No one's perfect, not even the vegan…

> I urge everyone to resist the all-or-nothing approach There is no other moral stance where someone could reasonably say this. Veganism is a moral stance the same way as "racism is bad" and "abusing my spouse is bad" is a moral stance. No one would ever say "I'm trying to limit kicking dogs to just Tuesday-Sunday". > vegan straight edge kids on Instagram who sneak a chicken nugget when no one's looking. You're proje…

The big difference is that racism and abuse invoke a social consensus. Veganism does not - the vast majority of society does not agree that veganism is a necessary, absolute moral stance. In fact, many would probably take offense at putting it on the same level of moral imperative as something like racism.

We also routinely deal with non-absolutes on these types of subjects. It's extremely common for people to disagree with the appropriate level of anti-racism, or the appropriate level of respect with which to treat one's spouse.

> You're projecting. Veganism is _not_ a diet.

It's more than a diet, for sure. But I do know many, many people who aspire to veganism and who at times make concessions. I don't think less of them for doing so.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#50

Post by hashimotonomora »

handmodel wrote: post #24
pranith wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even cows are extremely intelligent and emotional animals. Did you stop eating them?

This is what I don't quite get. Perhaps eating octopi seems gratuitous since they are expensive and not integrated into everyday customs/life. But hard to imagine an octopus is on a higher status than a pig or a cow which are fairly close to us evolutionarily.

Cows (actually their genes) have been evolutionarily successful by paradoxically allowing themselves to be slaughtered and eaten by humans.
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