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UK government response to my letter about programming in schools

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Re: UK government response to my letter about programming in schools

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, school time is not that scarce. An adult can learn to read and write in a couple of days of intensive practice. Maths can take longer, but have the same issues as programming - how many cruise directors use more than arithmetic? Learning programming can be easily misconstrued. Lets call it logic, algorithms and applied maths. Now is it a good idea? Sure, and its something a hypothetical cruise director coul…

>school time is not that scarce For students, no, for teachers, yes. And for the budgets? Picture yourself as a financer at a school, you have to fund more teachers, introduce a new subject and overall you're getting less money per student.

Hm. Logic, algorithms can be taught by existing teachers. The subject isn't entirely new, and especially in a primary-school context could be taught by any number of subject-teachers.

As for budget the letter was trying to address that, and got ignored - the cheap computer project. Part of the issue I think.

Re: UK government response to my letter about programming in schools

#42
I know somebody who writes these kind of response letters as part of her job in another area of the civil service. Her advice is to write back – outlining that your letter was misunderstood – but write to your MP rather than directly to Michael Gove. Apparently letters addressed to MPs are subject to a higher level of checking and are less likely to receive stock responses.

Re: UK government response to my letter about programming in schools

#43

While I'm aware this may get downvoted to the depths, I feel I have to say it. Why should kids be taught programming instead of reading, writing, language and maths? If the curriculum was changed to include programming, it would almost certainly reduce the funding and time put into other, more important subjects. While a good understanding of computers will help with almost any job in the future, unless you're going…

The word programming is distorting the real value of the subject, I think. It's easy to think of programming as something that is done with and to computers exclusively, but that's a sort of guilt by association.

Programming, at its base, is really a method for understanding and defining a process. It's about breaking a big task down into its component pieces. It's about turning one large, nearly intractable problem into a series of easily understood and fundamentally soluable problems.

If programming is taught in this context, with an emphasis on methods for problem-solving in general rather than language syntax in particular, its utility in the everyday life of the average person becomes a lot more obvious. I used simple programming as a part of a worker re-education program that included basic literacy and numeracy, and it proved to be very effective in the overall success of the students -- even with no expectation that programming would play a part in their later lives. It made other things easier for them to do, and if that's the only value that the "average" student gets out of a programming course, it seems like enough, doesn't it?

Re: UK government response to my letter about programming in schools

#44

While I'm aware this may get downvoted to the depths, I feel I have to say it. Why should kids be taught programming instead of reading, writing, language and maths? If the curriculum was changed to include programming, it would almost certainly reduce the funding and time put into other, more important subjects. While a good understanding of computers will help with almost any job in the future, unless you're going…

Nothing before in the history of man has had so much potential to change lives as programming does. And at little more cost than time. Incredible advances in every conceivable field are enabled by computers which must be driven by programmers.

We need more people to understand programming from a young age so they can intuitively understand and more effectively use their devices' capabilities, and also so there are more people in more fields equipped to identify + communicate positions where software could provide automation or assistance.

Re: UK government response to my letter about programming in schools

#46

While I'm aware this may get downvoted to the depths, I feel I have to say it. Why should kids be taught programming instead of reading, writing, language and maths? If the curriculum was changed to include programming, it would almost certainly reduce the funding and time put into other, more important subjects. While a good understanding of computers will help with almost any job in the future, unless you're going…

In this age, computers are everywhere and it looks like they will be even more in the foreseeable future. Even if you're not going to be a programmer, having an idea about what a computer (in the general sense of the word) really is and how it works can only be useful. At least as much as knowing how photosynthesis works, and probably more.

Add to this that programming can really help kids develop their problem solving abilities AND their creativity, and that it can be done in a fun way, and I would argue that the introduction of programming could be very beneficial to the development of kids.

Re: UK government response to my letter about programming in schools

#47
Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I don't see anything wrong with the reply (apart from the careless mis-spelling, obviously).

I don't know much about either John Graham-Cumming or Michael Gove personally. I do know that this is a long and, dare I say, rather rambling e-mail, which to me reads more like a lecture written to look good for a public audience than a sincere request for action by a government minister. Perhaps that is just my natural scepticisim talking -- I have no reason to believe that John actually meant it that way, and I have nothing against him based on his comments on HN -- but keep in mind that civil servants have finely tuned senses about such writing, because a lot of the people who send it are trying to set the minister up in one way or another.

A more practical problem is that the original e-mail contains almost no actionable content. The only specific detail is Raspberry Pi, which is not mentioned until the second half of the message and by the author's own description is not yet ready. Given how many doomed government IT projects surely get described as "close to completion" right up until they fail with a multi-million-pound write-off, it would hardly be surprising if no senior government figure wanted to be associated with something potentially toxic like that at this stage.

Even if the minister were willing to take a look, if it is indeed contrary to government policy to promote such specific details on a national basis, then there is little the responding civil servant can do to help except explain what the policy is and who might be able to help instead, which they did. Multi-level governments inherently set rules for which matters are to be handled at which levels, and it is futile to propose deviating from such fundamental rules in isolated cases like this.

I suspect John's intended point might have been more about the benefits of teaching kids to code in general, but I'm afraid that just doesn't come across from the message unless your audience is likely to read between the lines (see my comment about public audience above). In any case, while it may be a perfectly reasonable position to take, nothing in the e-mail suggests any specific action the minister could take to further that goal, so at best it is going to achieve a +1 in an "issues of interest" spreadsheet and a courtesy reply.

I do love the final comment, asking for a personal meeting with a secretary of state based on a quick e-mail, though. You've got to love someone with the chops to go for that right from the start. Maybe I just went to the wrong university... :-)

Re: UK government response to my letter about programming in schools

#48
I think it makes sense to first teach problem solving and logic from an early age, then maybe touch a little on actual programming later on.

Yes, programming may not be useful to most people, but problem solving, however, is. The ability to break a seemingly insurmountable problem into a number of smaller feasibly possible problems is an incredibly valuable skill. Then at a later stage, maybe mid-secondary school, a short programming project could be introduced, drawing from the skills learned in Logic and Problem Solving lessons. Those who become interested in programming are then encouraged to continue learning to program and those who aren't still have the skills learned in Logic and Problem Solving that they can apply across a vast number of careers.

Re: UK government response to my letter about programming in schools

#49

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I don't see anything wrong with the reply (apart from the careless mis-spelling, obviously). I don't know much about either John Graham-Cumming or Michael Gove personally. I do know that this is a long and, dare I say, rather rambling e-mail, which to me reads more like a lecture written to look good for a public audience than a sincere request for action by a government minister. Perh…

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I don't see anything wrong with the reply (apart from the careless mis-spelling, obviously).

I have a particular problem with it: the response to "this subject ought to be included in the curriculum" was "we aren't the ones to make that change, all we do is decide what's in the curriculum."

Re: UK government response to my letter about programming in schools

#50

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I don't see anything wrong with the reply (apart from the careless mis-spelling, obviously). I don't know much about either John Graham-Cumming or Michael Gove personally. I do know that this is a long and, dare I say, rather rambling e-mail, which to me reads more like a lecture written to look good for a public audience than a sincere request for action by a government minister. Perh…

which to me reads more like a lecture written to look good for a public audience than a sincere request for action by a government minister.

I never intended this letter to be public, it was written as a letter to Gove. I made it public because I thought the reply was so sad.

I do love the final comment, asking for a personal meeting with a secretary of state based on a quick e-mail, though

You don't get what you don't ask for.

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