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The complete idiot's guide to OpenBSD on the Pinebook Pro

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Re: The complete idiot's guide to OpenBSD on the Pinebook Pro

#41

Post by peatmoss »

aspyct wrote: post #23
temprature wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have examples of what in OpenBSD you found "utterly complicated to setup and use"? I've been using for several years now because of how devoid of complexity it is and because of how comprehensive the documentation is. Trying to even install other Unices nowadays frustrates me to no end because they're more complicated than "just keep pressing enter".

Well, for one thing, setting up FDE was way harder that it should probably be for "the most secure os on the planet". Also, I installed Kubuntu the other day, and I just kept pressing enter. There was even a checkbox for FDE.

I think it's the difference between being simple, and hiding complexity behind towers of abstraction. In my experience OpenBSD goes to great lengths to rethink systems and purge intrinsic complexity. By contrast, Linux tends to merge complexity behind meta interfaces.

OpenBSD's approach appeals to me aesthetically, and I like the feeling that I could easily dive in and get to the bottom of the stack. There is no magic.

By contrast, I look at Ubuntu as a hot mess of code that I'll never understand, while simultaneously appreciating that I can click through the installer after a cocktail or two and be playing games on Steam in short order.

Re: The complete idiot's guide to OpenBSD on the Pinebook Pro

#42

Post by mrweasel »

aspyct wrote: post #25
daneel_w wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're overreacting and exaggerating, both regarding OpenBSD being complicated to set up and about the community being toxic. Yes, a certain few people on the official mailing lists can be a bit vocal and stingy, and that also goes for one or two asocial a**holes on the inofficial IRC channel (#openbsd/libera), but these people are few and by no means representative of the community. For the absolute majority…

> I cannot imagine why you would feel OpenBSD is complicated to set up. Maybe the fact that there are so many manual steps to have a usable, "production grade", setup? Sure, you just have to follow documentation, but you're in for hours of work and learning tons of concepts before having anything secure if it's the first time. Also, if you make a single mistake along the way, all the help you'll get is a "Yeah, you d…

Just because I think it an awesome feature: Did you know that OpenBSD has an auto install feature, where the entire installer is scripted, no manual steps required? There is also the option for easily customizing the installer to configure the system so it's ready when it initially boot. See: https://man.openbsd.org/autoinstall, https://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq4.html#site and https://openbsd.amsterdam/setup.html for an example.

Even if you're just going through the manual install, there a no more steps than during something like a normal installation of Ubuntu. The disklabel tool isn't that user-friendly, but it's workable and help is available.

I think many believe the installation is complicated, simply because it's not graphical. Overall though, the installation process, the flexibility and tooling available for larger installation is impressive, and much better documented than anything I've seen on Linux.

Re: The complete idiot's guide to OpenBSD on the Pinebook Pro

#43

Post by mrweasel »

messe wrote: post #35
aspyct wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, for one thing, setting up FDE was way harder that it should probably be for "the most secure os on the planet". Also, I installed Kubuntu the other day, and I just kept pressing enter. There was even a checkbox for FDE.

Really? It's just a few commands away, all of which are completely transparent and documented in the FAQ: https://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq14.html#softraidFDE Granted it could probably be added to the installer, but that's hardly "Utterly complicated to setup".

Arguably it's a little weird that it's under "softraid", when you don't know that it's a feature provided by the softraid layer. It's easy enough to figure out after a bit of searching, but it's not the first place I'd look either.

Re: The complete idiot's guide to OpenBSD on the Pinebook Pro

#44

Post by carapace »

aspyct wrote: post #7

I'm amazed at how the openbsd community seems to like calling people idiots. I've been using various unices for about 20 years now, ranging from Slackware Linux to OpenSolaris to FreeBSD to Kubuntu. I gave openbsd a try a few years back, and found it utterly complicated to setup and use. And when you ask for help, you're treated like an idiot and the only reply you get is basically "rtfm". No joke, one of the guys sa…

From the POV of most of the folks working on OpenBSD most people are idiots. It's sounds like snark, but I'm trying to make a point here. There are umpteen OS for beginners (Ubuntu, TinyCore) or power users (Arch, most of the others) but OpenBSD is mostly for OpenBSD developers. They have been dealing with "idiots" who don't get that for years and years now, and part of their attitude is (IMO) just a heuristic for keeping out the riffraff.

Re: The complete idiot's guide to OpenBSD on the Pinebook Pro

#45

Post by protomyth »

aspyct wrote: post #28
nulbyte wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm amazed at how the openbsd community seems to like calling people idiots. "The complete idiot's guide" is a well-known series of books that cover a variety of topics for beginners; the title is a play on that. It's not an insult.

Author could have chosen any title. He chose this one. I wonder why. Nice write-up though, kudos to him.

I would imagine that the author had the same feeling as a lot of us who have written and researched complex documentation that you feel like an idiot for all the missteps and detours taken to find the correct path. There is always a joy in the completion but damn you wish you had been smarter and more knowledgeable in the middle.

Re: The complete idiot's guide to OpenBSD on the Pinebook Pro

#46

Post by morganvachon »

aspyct wrote: post #25
daneel_w wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're overreacting and exaggerating, both regarding OpenBSD being complicated to set up and about the community being toxic. Yes, a certain few people on the official mailing lists can be a bit vocal and stingy, and that also goes for one or two asocial a**holes on the inofficial IRC channel (#openbsd/libera), but these people are few and by no means representative of the community. For the absolute majority…

> I cannot imagine why you would feel OpenBSD is complicated to set up. Maybe the fact that there are so many manual steps to have a usable, "production grade", setup? Sure, you just have to follow documentation, but you're in for hours of work and learning tons of concepts before having anything secure if it's the first time. Also, if you make a single mistake along the way, all the help you'll get is a "Yeah, you d…

You say your background includes Slackware Linux but you find OpenBSD to be difficult, nigh impossible, to install correctly? I think you're being disingenuous. I too have a long history with Slackware, going back to the late 90s, and I first tried OpenBSD back in 2008. Back then, it didn't do nearly as much "out of the box" to help a new user along as it does today in 7.0. Back then the user was expected to know the proper installer URL to set up for pkg_add to work, was expected to know how to manually install closed source firmware if needed, was expected to know how to partition their drive beforehand, was expected to know how to set up and turn on WiFi, and so on. All of that information was of course in the man pages, but the user was expected to carry a lot of the responsibility of bringing up the system for the first time.

Today, the OpenBSD installer literally does all of that for you. It sets the /etc/installurl to a sane default (the OpenBSD CDN URL), it does WiFi autoconfig even if your firmware is not available yet, it has an automatic partitioning feature, and it attempts a firmware update, all before you reboot the first time. Sure, there are a few after-boot setup steps left to do, but no more so than in Slackware 15.0. Both OSes give you a command line after install, both expect you to tweak the OS to your own needs from its base configuration, and OpenBSD even helps you set up your regular user account in the installer rather than leaving you to do it afterwards as Slackware does.

Re: The complete idiot's guide to OpenBSD on the Pinebook Pro

#47

Post by hedora »

aspyct wrote: post #7

I'm amazed at how the openbsd community seems to like calling people idiots. I've been using various unices for about 20 years now, ranging from Slackware Linux to OpenSolaris to FreeBSD to Kubuntu. I gave openbsd a try a few years back, and found it utterly complicated to setup and use. And when you ask for help, you're treated like an idiot and the only reply you get is basically "rtfm". No joke, one of the guys sa…

I like OpenBSD because it doesn't treat the user like an idiot, and the documentation is excellent.

Also, the developers assume that they, themselves are idiots that can't maintain complex software, so they rip out as much unnecessary complexity as possible.

Sorry you had a bad experience with someone.

Re: The complete idiot's guide to OpenBSD on the Pinebook Pro

#48

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

mrweasel wrote: post #42
aspyct wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I cannot imagine why you would feel OpenBSD is complicated to set up. Maybe the fact that there are so many manual steps to have a usable, "production grade", setup? Sure, you just have to follow documentation, but you're in for hours of work and learning tons of concepts before having anything secure if it's the first time. Also, if you make a single mistake along the way, all the help you'll get is a "Yeah, you d…

Just because I think it an awesome feature: Did you know that OpenBSD has an auto install feature, where the entire installer is scripted, no manual steps required? There is also the option for easily customizing the installer to configure the system so it's ready when it initially boot. See: https://man.openbsd.org/autoinstall , https://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq4.html#site and https://openbsd.amsterdam/setup.html for…

Yeah, OpenBSD's autoinstall is absolutely best in class (2nd place, IMO, goes to Red Hat's kickstart), and is the kind of thing where once you've used it you wonder why everybody didn't do it this way. Just... Have the installer take input in text prompts, and then let people record the question and the answer in a text file.

Re: The complete idiot's guide to OpenBSD on the Pinebook Pro

#49

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

ospzfmbbzr wrote: post #33
rubyist5eva wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe try not being so easily offended? It is just a figure of speech after all (and a rather common one).

It's about branding you Idiot. Read the comment.

When I write documentation, I usually target it at an idiot. The idiot in question is me in six months when I've forgotten all this stuff. It's not an insult.

Re: The complete idiot's guide to OpenBSD on the Pinebook Pro

#50

Post by daneel_w »

aspyct wrote: post #28
nulbyte wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm amazed at how the openbsd community seems to like calling people idiots. "The complete idiot's guide" is a well-known series of books that cover a variety of topics for beginners; the title is a play on that. It's not an insult.

Author could have chosen any title. He chose this one. I wonder why. Nice write-up though, kudos to him.

Certainly not to offend people. It also helps if one isn't actively looking for things to feel offended over.
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