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15 of 23 Monkeys with Elon Musk’s Neuralink Brain Chips Reportedly Died

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Re: 15 of 23 Monkeys with Elon Musk’s Neuralink Brain Chips Reportedly Died

#41

Post by cheeze »

sterlind wrote: post #37
imdsm wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, it's easy for us to sit here and dismiss research into brain implants while we have full use of our bodies and are fit and healthy. On the other hand, people who have suffered horrific injuries likely feel quite differently about the research. While what's allegedly happening to the animals is horrible, let's just be clear that "self gain goal disguised as scientific research" is a highly subject take. No…

I'm suffering through learning to code again without much use of my hands. I would very much like Neuralink to be a thing.

Anywhere that I can read more about this? How do you do the coding? Feet? Something else?

Very cool - definitely an a11y area I don't really think about

Re: 15 of 23 Monkeys with Elon Musk’s Neuralink Brain Chips Reportedly Died

#43

Post by cheeze »

Computeiful wrote: post #9

“Pretty much every single monkey that had had implants put in their head suffered from pretty debilitating health effects,” said the PCRM’s research advocacy director Jeremy Beckham. “They were, frankly, maiming and killing the animals.” Elon's desire for human trials in 2022 definitely isn't going to work. Human trials in 2032 seems a much more realistic timeframe.

We'll get human trials after they actually launch FSD

So... never

Re: 15 of 23 Monkeys with Elon Musk’s Neuralink Brain Chips Reportedly Died

#44

Post by gherkinnn »

Computeiful wrote: post #9

“Pretty much every single monkey that had had implants put in their head suffered from pretty debilitating health effects,” said the PCRM’s research advocacy director Jeremy Beckham. “They were, frankly, maiming and killing the animals.” Elon's desire for human trials in 2022 definitely isn't going to work. Human trials in 2032 seems a much more realistic timeframe.

According to 2018, Tesla trucks should be in production last year.

He’s a well of stupid ideas and false promises. Trucks, Cybertrucks, FSD, robots, tunnels, going to Mars in 2025, using Dogecoin for interstellar purchases, uploading our brains and sending that in to space.

The list is endless.

Re: 15 of 23 Monkeys with Elon Musk’s Neuralink Brain Chips Reportedly Died

#45

Post by arcticbull »

jsnodlin wrote: post #35
arcticbull wrote: post #6

And died in the most gruesome ways imaginable. One of them appears to have chewed off its own toe. Elon's folks tortured them to death for a goal I cannot properly articulate, tbh.

Quoted post unavailable.

> Scientific progress has come to a standstill ...

Has it?

> ... with paradigm shifting knowledge within sight but out of reach for ethical reasons run amok.

I mean we played this game before in the 40s, with Mengele and Japan's (and then the US') Unit 731. [1]

> It’s okay let a few monkeys die, think of them like the cows you eat.

I have no problem killing animals for food. I generally avoid torturing them to death though. Of course, in some cases suffering is going to be unavoidable - as in some kinds of medical research, but generally there's a high burden and a meaningful ethics committee involved.

[1] Warning: you may not want to follow this link, and I say that as someone who grew up with the internet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

Re: 15 of 23 Monkeys with Elon Musk’s Neuralink Brain Chips Reportedly Died

#46

Post by lvs »

Kosirich wrote: post #17

Instead of bashing and defending Elon Musk, I would appreciate an answer from a medical researcher or someone with equivalent knowledge on how do the findings relate to other medical studies where monkeys are used, in terms of numbers used, way monkeys were treated as well as research outcome value compared to similar studies done elsewhere. (thanks)

The NIH has been narrowing the scope of primate research for some time. Several years ago, they announced they'll no longer fund invasive chimp work. There are regular scandals about the conditions or experimentation on primates that crop up every couple of years.

As far as "research outcome value," unfortunately this is notoriously difficult to quantify for all aspects of the research enterprise. Most of the metrics typically used are abysmal for any serious utilitarian analysis (e.g. publication count, references to those publications, patents approved, funding raised, etc.). And you would not be surprised to hear stories very similar to this one quietly passed around in both academic and industry contexts, where consequences are few if any. It makes many people uncomfortable, but the power dynamics are such that they continue so long as they continue to support career advancement and continue to be approved by IRBs and funding agencies. That's not to justify what's being reported here-- far from it. If anything, I would support a broad ban on primate experimentation with few exceptions.

Re: 15 of 23 Monkeys with Elon Musk’s Neuralink Brain Chips Reportedly Died

#47

Post by jsnodlin »

arcticbull wrote: post #45
jsnodlin wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

> Scientific progress has come to a standstill ... Has it? > ... with paradigm shifting knowledge within sight but out of reach for ethical reasons run amok. I mean we played this game before in the 40s, with Mengele and Japan's (and then the US') Unit 731. [1] > It’s okay let a few monkeys die, think of them like the cows you eat. I have no problem killing animals for food. I generally avoid torturing them to death…

Yes everyone is aware of what happens if you completely do away with ethics in science. Moderation is key here, the pendulum has swung too far to the other extreme from your example.

Re: 15 of 23 Monkeys with Elon Musk’s Neuralink Brain Chips Reportedly Died

#48

Post by dzhiurgis »

sdoering wrote: post #24

I can't even imagine how these experiments are passing an ethics committee. I had never heard of this experiment before, but this report is one of these moments, that make me question, if we took the wrong branch of reality. A billionaire torturing animals for a self gain goal disguised as scientific research sounds like a plot from a James Bond movie of my childhood. I just can't wrap my head around.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cochlear_implant

Has been around for half a century

Move on

Re: 15 of 23 Monkeys with Elon Musk’s Neuralink Brain Chips Reportedly Died

#49

Post by arcticbull »

jsnodlin wrote: post #47
arcticbull wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Scientific progress has come to a standstill ... Has it? > ... with paradigm shifting knowledge within sight but out of reach for ethical reasons run amok. I mean we played this game before in the 40s, with Mengele and Japan's (and then the US') Unit 731. [1] > It’s okay let a few monkeys die, think of them like the cows you eat. I have no problem killing animals for food. I generally avoid torturing them to death…

Yes everyone is aware of what happens if you completely do away with ethics in science. Moderation is key here, the pendulum has swung too far to the other extreme from your example.

> Moderation is key here, the pendulum has swung too far to the other extreme from your example.

Ok, do you have some examples of experiments that you think wouldn't make it past ethics committee but are worth doing anyways to help unlock paradigm shifting advances? Please describe them, and explain specifically for what reason you think they wouldn't make it past ethics committee. I'm willing to be convinced.

Re: 15 of 23 Monkeys with Elon Musk’s Neuralink Brain Chips Reportedly Died

#50

Post by caaqil »

IIAOPSW wrote: post #18

The article felt a bit flat. Surely there's no such thing as "oops, monkey died, let me just grab the next one off the shelf". There's no real reporting into the why or how, just uncritical repeating of the complaint that the neuralink research is dangerous / unethical. The reporting is so flimsy that one starts to look at the page and ask "wait, what site am I on anyway?" Hmm, I wonder what sort of bias a site calle…

Yeah, the URL should probably be changed to the Post article: https://nypost.com/2022/02/10/elon-musks-neuralink-allegedly... (which was posted here a couple of times: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30293937 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30305100)
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