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Re: Branch off of main

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The cakewalk was a pre-Civil War dance performed by enslaved people, and the winner of which would be given a cake. This is the original source for the phrases “takes the cake” and “cakewalk.” Because of this history, this word and phrase should be avoided. > Brown bags trace back to the “brown paper bag test,” which was traditionally used to judge skin color by certain African-American sororities and fraternities.…

To know you shouldn't use these phrases, you need to know the context. Therefore, by not using these words, you're reminded of the context. Any time somebody notices you substituting a phrase and they know why, they will be reminded of the context. Like all self-censorship, it immerses the speaker in the truth while they trip overthemselves trying not to say that thing. It's like saying, "Don't think about elephants.…

> Now everybody is thinking about it.

About the elephant in the room you mean?

Re: Branch off of main

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am black but not from the USA I'm from the Caribbean. It's hilarious how people perceive those who look like me. Like we are some hyper-sensitive, fragile babies who cannot understand nuance of speech. It's even worse when some white Americans are afraid to joke around me or poke fun at me, because they don't want to punch down. Meanwhile I feel more privileged than most white Americans. I speak 3 languages perfect…

I appreciate that you chimed in because it's a common perception. But stopping the use of the master-slave metaphor in tech has nothing to do with assuming there are "hyper-sensitive, fragile babies who cannot understand nuance of speech" it has to do with real metaphors that persist in tech, which hold problematic historical baggage. The IETF has a document with the clearest and most informative statement on this th…

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Re: Branch off of main

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Master is used in many context like master key, mastering a song, master copy, having mastery in something. To stir up controversy because one interpretation is "problematic" just emphasizes that interpretation and reminds everybody that they're not suffering from enough guilt about past events they had no personal involvement in.

I feel like that logic could be used to excuse every historical term with baggage. Plus, it's not really stirring up controversy saying "hey, we should probably change the term to ~this~, which is equally or more descriptive, in a way that doesn't rely on historically problematic contexts". I think what you're focusing on is chiding people who still use the older terms; I've never seen that happen. I've seen people m…

Every word has baggage. "The" was used in slave documents. So were receipts. Does this mean everytime a grocery store clerk gives you a receipt they are perpetuating slavery?

Even Blacklist/Blackbook come not from anything to do with black people but Charles II and his list. If you are offended by it, it's because you chose to be.

Re: Branch off of main

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am black but not from the USA I'm from the Caribbean. It's hilarious how people perceive those who look like me. Like we are some hyper-sensitive, fragile babies who cannot understand nuance of speech. It's even worse when some white Americans are afraid to joke around me or poke fun at me, because they don't want to punch down. Meanwhile I feel more privileged than most white Americans. I speak 3 languages perfect…

> Then I made the mistake of consuming "woke content" on reddit and Twitter and it affected me, after college those ideas limited me in ways I could only imagine. Can you share more about this experience?

The "woke content" just lumps everybody in one big pile, categorizes everyone in order to validate a theory:

After living here for 15 years, I have realized the main narrative of the "black experience" "what is means to be black" is very Anglo-US-centric.

In college, I met a Jamaican guy, the culture shock was just as intense as when I met that girl from mongolia. Totally different cultures and customs. But on paper, in the USA , Me and that Jamaican guy were just Black.

I had more in common with the White French exchange student than with the Black-American kid from Virginia. To me: that black American kid and a white American kid were the same.

From an academical, political standpoint, Black has become synonymous with "African-American" Not just any "African-American", poor disenfranchised black Americans who are likely from the "ghetto". White means: some mean monster , who are controlling the world and are out to get everybody. So naturally I started to second guess how people acted around me.

Don't get me wrong racism is still alive and well I have experienced it in various forms:

* Prepaid for a meal at a fancy restaurant, the people before me just gave a name and grabbed their food, I was asked to show a receipt.

* Jogging in my neighborhood and having the police follow me around, almost like clockwork can't be a coincidence. (They became cool once they learned I lived there).

* Going out with my white coworkers in casual clothing vs going out with my siblings in casual clothing we have to dress extra fancy to get treated the same, otherwise we get poor service - The black guilt to tip extra at restaurants)

But: Most of the white people I've met were amazing, great people. That mean guy, is probably a jerk to everyone and just happens to be white.

There needs to be a balance, raise awareness about issues of society, but don't go to the extreme.

In my language: "The sky is blue, he is about to rain. I need to move my car otherwise she will get flooded"

Re: Branch off of main

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of the stuff in the list is okay. The master/slave change is something I agree with. Black/white I can see… Some of this feels like someone tried really hard to find problems that didn’t exist and fix them.

>Some of this feels like someone tried really hard to find problems that didn’t exist and fix them. That's how a lot of people feel about master/slave and black/white.

Okay. Let's break this down.

You have the word "master". It has at least two meanings in standard English and an additional one for technical jargon. Let's call these concepts owner/slave, expert/apprentice, and primary/secondary.

Even though owner/slave and primary/secondary are different concepts, the technical jargon makes the unfortunate reference the owner/slave meaning because of the use of the word "slave". It's difficult to defense the use of master/slave in this context.

The master in the expert/apprentice concept could be called leader, expert, or teacher and no one would have a problem with that.

This distinction is where people start getting upset.

I'd argue most technical people didn't even give a second thought to master/slave and for them they never considered it to be anything other than primary/secondary because owner/slave is no longer common use and hasn't been for a while. Besides, US Civil War was more than 150 years ago! Who gives a shit?

Well... people do because the effects of that war still affect our society and no one agrees on how to fix it. Removing problematic phrasing from our language as part of that makes sense. No one agrees on that either.

Re: Branch off of main

#46

> The basic thesis is one of dedicated roles, with the manager archetype focusing their time towards enablement, communication, and expectation. No, it's because programming requires a mental model of the software and most managers don't have that. Add in constant interruptions and the inability to focus and you have a recipe for disaster. Would you sometimes take a break from programming to go help accounting do the…

> Would you sometimes take a break from programming to go help accounting do the accounting work? No, no you wouldn't - accounting would smack the tar out of you. Just because you think you can contribute because you used to be able to is the notion that you need to break, and this applies to other fields too.

As a counter-argument to this: With my software side business, I've had to dabble in accounting, and I find it a refreshing break. It's like going outside and pulling some weeds. For me it contributes to my productivity and mental health to have a diverse work experience.

Re: Branch off of main

#47

Quoted post unavailable.

The same reason you aren't supposed to use the words: + master + slave + blacklist + whitelist + grandfather + brown bag + manpower + hijack + kill The list goes on (and on) and I have not transcribed even a portion of it. https://itconnect.uw.edu/work/inclusive-language-guide/ https://blog.ongig.com/writing-job-descriptions/a-list-of-of...

Why is black box included?

My first introduction to the term was in the first chapter of SICP and it speaks positively about abstraction.

Also, I'm still not sure why cultural appropriation is actually considered bad.

Anecdata for sure, but I remember one time my cousin (who is of my same culture) excitedly tell us about how in another country (in another continent), a singer from our country was quite famous and they listened to his songs and even sometimes wore clothing from our country. It seems like our cuisine is popular there too. And all of us thought it was very cool!

Re: Branch off of main

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like that logic could be used to excuse every historical term with baggage. Plus, it's not really stirring up controversy saying "hey, we should probably change the term to ~this~, which is equally or more descriptive, in a way that doesn't rely on historically problematic contexts". I think what you're focusing on is chiding people who still use the older terms; I've never seen that happen. I've seen people m…

Every word has baggage. "The" was used in slave documents. So were receipts. Does this mean everytime a grocery store clerk gives you a receipt they are perpetuating slavery? Even Blacklist/Blackbook come not from anything to do with black people but Charles II and his list. If you are offended by it, it's because you chose to be.

What's your point? Does that logic excuse every word with historical baggage, or not? You state every word has historical baggage; either you then disagree with the parent logic, or you agree with the parent logic, and taken together with every word having baggage means you're saying every word is okay to use regardless of the historical baggage attached to it. Which is an interesting take, certainly.

Re: Branch off of main

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate that you chimed in because it's a common perception. But stopping the use of the master-slave metaphor in tech has nothing to do with assuming there are "hyper-sensitive, fragile babies who cannot understand nuance of speech" it has to do with real metaphors that persist in tech, which hold problematic historical baggage. The IETF has a document with the clearest and most informative statement on this th…

Master has a history in English long before the Transatlantic slave trade. The original sense in English meant "teacher": https://www.etymonline.com/word/master#etymonline_v_9692 It is very disengenous (and Americentric) to suggest we should revise our language just because of one event. That's simply giving more ground to the wrongdoers. Slave owners only used the word because of its existing connotations, after all…

That logic always seems to fall apart for me. Of course words have had different non-problematic uses over time, before and after a problematic usage. But that doesn't negate the fact that it does and did have a problematic usage.

White people who want the ability to say the n-word often use a similar argument. ("It's only problematic [when/if]...") .

Re: Branch off of main

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate that you chimed in because it's a common perception. But stopping the use of the master-slave metaphor in tech has nothing to do with assuming there are "hyper-sensitive, fragile babies who cannot understand nuance of speech" it has to do with real metaphors that persist in tech, which hold problematic historical baggage. The IETF has a document with the clearest and most informative statement on this th…

Master is used in many context like master key, mastering a song, master copy, having mastery in something. To stir up controversy because one interpretation is "problematic" just emphasizes that interpretation and reminds everybody that they're not suffering from enough guilt about past events they had no personal involvement in.

That logic always seems to fall apart for me. Of course words have had different non-problematic uses over time, before and after a problematic usage. But that doesn't negate the fact that it does and did have a problematic usage.

White people who want the ability to say the n-word often use a similar argument. ("It's only problematic [when/if]...") .

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