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Push Notifications, WebXR, and better PWA support coming to iOS

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Re: Push Notifications, WebXR, and better PWA support coming to iOS

#41

Post by teucris »

mrtksn wrote: post #24
paulgb wrote: post #3

I'm excited to see support for Web Push. I realize that most people associate it with spammy sites asking for permission to send you notifications you don't want, but I think it hasn't really been given a chance because it lacks iOS support. Some things that it enables: - Low-friction asynchronous turn-based games (think “Words with Friends” but you don't have to install an app) - Single-purpose alerts (like CamelCam…

So, once this is integrated clicking a link will have the following experience: 1) Tracking preferences overlay that will have a wall of text with "Accept all" and "Customise" buttons that would not be clickable the first few tries. 2) Then you will have a modal that asks for your e-mail address so you can receive the newsletters from the website that you are trying to understand what is this all about. 3) And now yo…

> Most of the noise comes from Web technologists don't want to learn anything beyond JavaScript.

I agree with a lot of what you wrote, but not this. PWAs are the only path for allowing open publishing of apps that is not gated by a large tech firm. While I completely understand the value proposition of app stores, there are tons of app scenarios held back by them. Two instances are small web[0] and situated software[1] as app stores keep people from publishing apps meant for small audiences by their very definition. Both of these fall under your desire to maximize the user experience.

Furthermore, PWAs are the closest thing we have to a “universal” platform. Personally, if I could write an app that worked on all mobile devices and the web in COBOL, I’d be thrilled to write “PROCEDURE DIVISION” every day.

The web is a mess because it is open. The web can be scammy because some people are scammy. Restricting PWAs doesn’t mitigate scamminess - it just restricts openness.

[0] https://ar.al/2020/08/07/what-is-the-small-web/ [1] https://www.gwern.net/docs/technology/2004-03-30-shirky-situ...

Re: Push Notifications, WebXR, and better PWA support coming to iOS

#42

Post by istjohn »

maga wrote: post #10

Sounds almost too good to be true, but here is hoping for the best. > Opus audio decoder (enabled) Considering the track record of codec support, I bet it only works when packaged as CAF, singed by QuickTime, and played during the daytime to a limited audience... I joke, but the amount of gotchas I encounter while working with WebAudio API is mindboggling and reminiscent of good ol' days of IE6. Would you guess that…

I just spent the weekend banging my head against the wall trying to record and upload audio in Safari. Chrome and FF were relatively easy. Know of any good open source examples or documentation on how to do this?

It really is sad that something so simple is so hard. I refuse to pay 10 cents a minute to a third party.

Re: Push Notifications, WebXR, and better PWA support coming to iOS

#43

Post by egeozcan »

jtbayly wrote: post #4
paulgb wrote: post #3

I'm excited to see support for Web Push. I realize that most people associate it with spammy sites asking for permission to send you notifications you don't want, but I think it hasn't really been given a chance because it lacks iOS support. Some things that it enables: - Low-friction asynchronous turn-based games (think “Words with Friends” but you don't have to install an app) - Single-purpose alerts (like CamelCam…

Just to add: - Getting notifications from websites I want notifications from This should not be impossible just because there are 5 trillion websites I don't want notifications from.

Exactly, why can't there be presets to set the trust level on websites?

- Hey, it seems like you want to use our notification feature, and we are delighted. For us to be able to push you messages, you need to set out trust level to "App", to do this...

I mean, nobody will open a menu and click on 3 things for a spammy website, but many people will do it for their favorite 3 sites.

- Clicking on this button will trust this website (example com) as an [App] and give it the ability to store information on your device, and send you notifications. Please don't do this for the sites you don't trust. [Cancel] [I trust this website]

Our grandparents can run random executable from the internet and with some common-sense training and scary popups from anti-virus and UAC, it is still risky but tolerable. This is way more secure and easier, why cant this work?

- You already trust this app (example com) and it can already store information on your device and send you notifications. Clicking on this button will add it to your trusted apps and allow it to ask for files stored on your device by other apps, and also allow it to ask to access your contacts. These permissions will be only available when you are actively using the app. [Cancel] [Add example com to trusted apps]

Please some browser implement this.

Re: Push Notifications, WebXR, and better PWA support coming to iOS

#44

Post by moron4hire »

jimmySixDOF wrote: post #26
moron4hire wrote: post #11

I really hope the WebXR API stuff will come with support for VR headsets in Safari on desktop, and that whatever Apple's rumored VR headset end up being will also support it. WebXR has been great for my app at work, but we're basically locked into the Quest 2 right now because Mozilla dropped the ball on WebXR support. Oculus is the only one doing significant VR work with WebXR in their Oculus Browser, which is a Chr…

There is also no mention yet on Apple support for glTF file types which is important to keeping an open web based XR ecosystem.

There's really no need for that. WebGL and WebGPU have no concept of file types. Whether it's Wavefront OBJ or COLLADA or glTF or some jankasaurus of JSON loaded out of a database, WebGL isn't going to and shouldn't have to understand it natively. It's on the app developer to translate that to vertices, texture maps, etc. And that's going to change a lot depending on what sort of abstraction layer you're using on top of WebGL, e.g. Three.js or Babylon.js or whatever. If anything, having native support for specific 3D interchange formats would constrict and over complicate the available options to app and 3D framework developers.

Re: Push Notifications, WebXR, and better PWA support coming to iOS

#45

Post by mrtksn »

teucris wrote: post #41
mrtksn wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, once this is integrated clicking a link will have the following experience: 1) Tracking preferences overlay that will have a wall of text with "Accept all" and "Customise" buttons that would not be clickable the first few tries. 2) Then you will have a modal that asks for your e-mail address so you can receive the newsletters from the website that you are trying to understand what is this all about. 3) And now yo…

> Most of the noise comes from Web technologists don't want to learn anything beyond JavaScript. I agree with a lot of what you wrote, but not this. PWAs are the only path for allowing open publishing of apps that is not gated by a large tech firm. While I completely understand the value proposition of app stores, there are tons of app scenarios held back by them. Two instances are small web[0] and situated software[…

I wouldn't call PWAs universal platform when they are very dependent on Google being nice with Chrome. Also, browsers already have integrated blocking mechanism that is supposed to block out phishing sites etc. but that's only the case because so far the browser infrastructure operators(Mozilla, Google, Apple) are acting nice. The Push notification infrastructure is also possible only because the browser infrastructure operators are being nice so far.

At any point Google or other browser makers can choose not to be nice or can be compelled to follow regulatory orders.

The only universal thing about PWAs is the availability of Google Chrome to all major platforms and that's up to the courtesy of Google. They may choose not to do it at any time, they may choose to discontinue their push notification backend just like that.

Browsers are not standalone apps anymore, they are dependent on the backend services of the browser company. That's especially important when they need to run PWA.

Re: Push Notifications, WebXR, and better PWA support coming to iOS

#46

Post by maga »

istjohn wrote: post #42
maga wrote: post #10

Sounds almost too good to be true, but here is hoping for the best. > Opus audio decoder (enabled) Considering the track record of codec support, I bet it only works when packaged as CAF, singed by QuickTime, and played during the daytime to a limited audience... I joke, but the amount of gotchas I encounter while working with WebAudio API is mindboggling and reminiscent of good ol' days of IE6. Would you guess that…

I just spent the weekend banging my head against the wall trying to record and upload audio in Safari. Chrome and FF were relatively easy. Know of any good open source examples or documentation on how to do this? It really is sad that something so simple is so hard. I refuse to pay 10 cents a minute to a third party.

In the end, I went with this library for now: https://github.com/chris-rudmin/opus-recorder

There are issues reported with the latest iOS, though.

Re: Push Notifications, WebXR, and better PWA support coming to iOS

#47

Post by NicoJuicy »

I was going to write 10 years too late, but I decided to look it up.

I'm proud to announce i was wrong. It's actually 15 years too late, since it was promised in 2007.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_web_application

I suppose increased regularisation worldwide has something to do with it to announce it again.

I'm curious which features they will lag now...

Re: Push Notifications, WebXR, and better PWA support coming to iOS

#48

Post by brimble »

tehbeard wrote: post #7
mwexler wrote: post #5

Funny enough, apps were supposed to be just for Apple. The original conception is that 3rd party tools, games, etc. for the iPhone would just be webapps. ( https://9to5mac.com/2011/10/21/jobs-original-vision-for-the-... , etc.) A few adjustments to the model and here we are with lots of native code and big money... but still, folks requesting updates to the the browser to support more app-ish functionality. I'm glad;…

I guess the main difference is JVM didn't have a workable UI vs the web?

You had to install the JVM. It often broke or bugged you to update. UI usually felt off or janky, and unresponsive. At the time, Java applets were huge compared to typical web pages, and had crap performance. By the time hardware and connections improved enough to make the last two things less of a problem, JavaScript could do most of the useful things the JVM could with fewer security risks (and hardware was fast enough that that wasn't also so slow that no-one would tolerate it, as it would have been earlier).

[EDIT] Oh, and it had to compete with Flash and Shockwave, which had (barely) fewer issues with plugin breakage, very nice authoring tools (still unmatched, AFAIK?), and, despite having crap performance, still performed better than Java applets. Plus a whole lot more fun things used them so normal people had a motivation to install them.

Re: Push Notifications, WebXR, and better PWA support coming to iOS

#49

Post by moron4hire »

hestefisk wrote: post #14

I really can’t see many use cases for web notifications apart from annoying sites trying to bug me. So I’m happy Apple haven’t supported it.

Do you have notifications turned off in every native app you also use? The reason scummy linkspam websites are the "only" ones using web notifications these days is specifically because it's not a reliably useful feature. App developers who want to make a good user experience around notifications are instead pushed to making native apps instead.

Personally, I don't use the native Twitter app anymore. I use the web version of Twitter, installed as an app, complete with shortcuts in my launchers. I have web notifications turned on and the experience is nearly identical to the native app. But there are little details that I think make it a better experience, like haptic feedback on mobile when clicking the Like button, or being able to select subsections of text on the screen. I have this on my Android phone, my Linux laptop, my Windows desktop, and my Mac Mini. It's exactly the same interface, everywhere, whereas the native app is ever so slightly different from the web app.

I have a lot of sites that I've installed as apps on my computers and it's great: SoundCloud, LiChess, HBO Max, NetFlix, Azure Portal, TeamWork, a couple of different WebGL games, my own management interface for my app at work. It's all basically just a shortcut to the site, without the URL bar chrome. I like it a lot more than using tabs.

Re: Push Notifications, WebXR, and better PWA support coming to iOS

#50

Post by AlexandrB »

egeozcan wrote: post #43
jtbayly wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to add: - Getting notifications from websites I want notifications from This should not be impossible just because there are 5 trillion websites I don't want notifications from.

Exactly, why can't there be presets to set the trust level on websites? - Hey, it seems like you want to use our notification feature, and we are delighted. For us to be able to push you messages, you need to set out trust level to "App", to do this... I mean, nobody will open a menu and click on 3 things for a spammy website, but many people will do it for their favorite 3 sites. - Clicking on this button will trust…

Except make it wayyyy more fine grained so I can give the app permission to store files but not send notifications or to access the files of one other app but not another. Something like Apple's fine-grained photos permissions would be good.
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