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A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

latimes.com

41–50 of 150 posts

Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#41

Short answer is “yes”. It’s the same way a homeowner can be responsible if they negligently leave some issues on their property and a person falls to their death. The ultimate responsibility is the person behind the wheel. That said, I’d argue Tesla is also liable. To what extent I don’t know, but it was clearly a contributing factor.

> some issues on their property

Nah, it's more like how you are responsible for a loose animal that leaves your property and causes harm.

/ianal

Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#42
post #5

Autopilot is a free feature on Teslas, and is a simple lane assist system, akin to cruise control. It is not Full Self Driving. FSD is an expensive upgrade, and is supposed to do things like stop at lights. Driver was on autopilot, which explicitly warns you upon activation that it doesn't stop. Clickbait from a once great, now awful newspaper.

There is not a single mention of FSD in the article; neither did the article ever say that the driver was using it.

Did you just prove that you read as far as the headline and not the entire article itself?

Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#43
post #37

Ultimately yes. You are the driver of the car. It is involuntary manslaughter. Even if it is a software error, even if the brakes stop working, even if x, y or z (etc) It is always the responsibility of the driver to accept the consequences of any forseen or unforseen actions of any kind of outcome. Depending on the unfortunate event, any mitigating events might be taken into account.

This is a very interesting opinion, however, I don't think it works like that in any jurisdiction.

Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#44
post #29

Does Tesla’s autopilot normally stop at red lights? My Subaru’s equivalent doesn’t (Unless there’s a car in front of me that also stops at the light).

Yes but it's an option (the incorrectly named full self driving package). https://www.tesla.com/support/autopilot

Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#45
post #35

If the drivers must be always in control of the vehicle (according to the manual and the activation of Autopilot), what's good in this feature? Couldn't the driver sue Tesla for bad marketing? They are selling a feature which is a lie, aren't they? PD: I don't own any car and I have nothing against Tesla.

It would be a bad lawyer who didn't try to drag Tesla into court for this. Tesla has more money than whoever was driving (well I didn't look into the background, maybe the driver is filthy rich, but odds are against it), and lawyers always look for the deepest pockets. The victim's lawyer and the driver's lawyers (more likely his insurance company's lawyers) both have incentive to pin this on Tesla as much as they can, and marketing is admissible in court.

Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#46

Short answer is “yes”. It’s the same way a homeowner can be responsible if they negligently leave some issues on their property and a person falls to their death. The ultimate responsibility is the person behind the wheel. That said, I’d argue Tesla is also liable. To what extent I don’t know, but it was clearly a contributing factor.

Can you explain how Tesla is liable? It is made clear to the driver (both in the manual and at activation of Autopilot) that they remain the final authority in control of the vehicle, and at the time of the accident, the Tesla software build did not support detection and actioning of stop lights nor stop signs. Are folks going to sue GM and Ford when people don't pay attention when their versions of driver assist don…

Tesla markets their software as "full self-driving".

Their page on their own website[1] for the autopilot has a video which starts with the words "The person in the driver's seat is only there for legal reasons. He is not doing anything. The car is driving itself." Followed by a video of a tesla driving itself on public roads with other cars around while the person's hands are not on the wheel.

While they have those disclaimers, they are only there to try to protect themselves from liability. But their marketing, and especially the words from Elon's mouth, are 100% geared towards making the consumer believe that the system is capable of driving itself.

They can claim they told the driver to always be in charge, but there's no way (in my eyes) that they can do that with a straight face. "You gotta keep your hands on the wheel and always be in charge wink."

[1]: https://www.tesla.com/autopilot

Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#48

Short answer is “yes”. It’s the same way a homeowner can be responsible if they negligently leave some issues on their property and a person falls to their death. The ultimate responsibility is the person behind the wheel. That said, I’d argue Tesla is also liable. To what extent I don’t know, but it was clearly a contributing factor.

Can you explain how Tesla is liable? It is made clear to the driver (both in the manual and at activation of Autopilot) that they remain the final authority in control of the vehicle, and at the time of the accident, the Tesla software build did not support detection and actioning of stop lights nor stop signs. Are folks going to sue GM and Ford when people don't pay attention when their versions of driver assist don…

Have you ever seen those signs on the back of dump trucks on the highway that state something like, “Stay Back: Truck Driver Not Responsible for Cracked Windshields”?

Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#49

Short answer is “yes”. It’s the same way a homeowner can be responsible if they negligently leave some issues on their property and a person falls to their death. The ultimate responsibility is the person behind the wheel. That said, I’d argue Tesla is also liable. To what extent I don’t know, but it was clearly a contributing factor.

Can you explain how Tesla is liable? It is made clear to the driver (both in the manual and at activation of Autopilot) that they remain the final authority in control of the vehicle, and at the time of the accident, the Tesla software build did not support detection and actioning of stop lights nor stop signs. Are folks going to sue GM and Ford when people don't pay attention when their versions of driver assist don…

Tesla gives out conflicting messages.

For years, and even today, there are Tesla-produced videos that say:

> The driver is only in the seat for legal reasons. The car is driving itself.

So while there is a disclaimer, there's also Tesla's not so subtle nudge nudge wink wink implications.

They did the same with Summon. While the fine print said "Do not use while distracted. Pay attention to the vehicle at all times", the rest of their copy said:

> Have your car come to you while you deal with a fussy child.

Tesla and Musk (and remember, Tesla told the SEC Musk's Twitter is an "official company communication channel") have even linked and re-tweeted videos of people driving entirely hands-free.

Liability lies with the driver, but it would not be hard to argue that the company's under is "Bah. Pesky regulation. All this shit works, but we're just waiting on the law to catch up".

Re: A Tesla on autopilot killed two people. Is the driver guilty of manslaughter?

#50
Here is an interesting question I recently came upon, does the driver of a Tesla need consent from their passengers before turning on FSD? I would argue yes, because I don’t want to unknowingly beta test software with my life, but I am curious what others think.
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