LatencyFleX: A new approach to game latency reduction
41–50 of 69 posts
Re: LatencyFleX: A new approach to game latency reduction
#42I just want to say I am glad pro gaming took over. Back in the day it was only Quake players advocating for 120 FPS (for various reasons, including Q3 physics being somewhat broken), 125hz mice and stuff like that. I am talking 20 years ago. The number of lost souls parroting the old "human eye can only see 30 fps" has gone down considerably over the years. The last 10 years were fantastic in that regard, despite the…
There's definitely diminishing returns the higher we go with refresh rates. 60hz to 240hz for example is like playing a completely different game. But going from 240hz to 360hz, even in CSGO it's a lot harder to notice a difference. Personally I believe the newly announced 300hz 27" 1440p monitors[0] are going to be the perfect sweet spot for the foreseeable future. I imagine it will be a long time before technology…
Re: LatencyFleX: A new approach to game latency reduction
#43I just want to say I am glad pro gaming took over. Back in the day it was only Quake players advocating for 120 FPS (for various reasons, including Q3 physics being somewhat broken), 125hz mice and stuff like that. I am talking 20 years ago. The number of lost souls parroting the old "human eye can only see 30 fps" has gone down considerably over the years. The last 10 years were fantastic in that regard, despite the…
That being said in the quake days I dont think monitors could go over 60hz anyways so even at 120FPS you were not gaining a similar advantage from what we have today. From what I remember however there were other advantages to high FPS in games like Counterstrike as well in terms of player movement - the monitor might have "smoothed" the motion back down to 60 fps but it still resulted in a more accurate experience.
I forget how refresh rate worked on CRT's though - maybe those could higher than 60?
And of course you can overclock an LCD monitor quite easily - most will not do much but there are some that I got to 90hz which (in my opinion) is a massive improvement compared to 60 and the 30hz difference is a much, much larger jump than the next jump from 90 to 120hz.
Re: LatencyFleX: A new approach to game latency reduction
#44I just want to say I am glad pro gaming took over. Back in the day it was only Quake players advocating for 120 FPS (for various reasons, including Q3 physics being somewhat broken), 125hz mice and stuff like that. I am talking 20 years ago. The number of lost souls parroting the old "human eye can only see 30 fps" has gone down considerably over the years. The last 10 years were fantastic in that regard, despite the…
There's definitely diminishing returns the higher we go with refresh rates. 60hz to 240hz for example is like playing a completely different game. But going from 240hz to 360hz, even in CSGO it's a lot harder to notice a difference. Personally I believe the newly announced 300hz 27" 1440p monitors[0] are going to be the perfect sweet spot for the foreseeable future. I imagine it will be a long time before technology…
Realistically I think the two sweet spots are 120hz and 240hz - not necessarily because they are the best of the best but because they are each divisible by both 24 and 30 (the most common FPS of films and television) AND they offer two tiers of increased performance for different hardware requirements. You can run a much more taxing game at 120 and then if you want to spend the big bucks on the latest hardware move up to 240.
As for resolution I completely agree with you - 1440P is really a sweet spot for 27" monitors. If display / DPI scaling improves across multiple OS then I think eventually we will likely have 4K become the norm for 27" sized monitors and it will show some improvement but again be diminishing returns like the difference between 120-240. That being said as more film content moves to 4k I think we will also start to see 1440P become less popular as people will want to view content in something that doesnt scale.
All of this however is nothing compared to the improvement that a true HDR display brings - a high end monitor that can show a large increase in dynamic range is such a game changer and I do not think most people realize it yet - it brings us so much closer to how the human eye really sees that I really think it is equivalent to the difference of going from laserdisc resolution to something 4k. And on top of that now that cameras are also shooting in such massive dynamic ranges it is going to make older content just look plain in comparison.
Re: LatencyFleX: A new approach to game latency reduction
#45I just want to say I am glad pro gaming took over. Back in the day it was only Quake players advocating for 120 FPS (for various reasons, including Q3 physics being somewhat broken), 125hz mice and stuff like that. I am talking 20 years ago. The number of lost souls parroting the old "human eye can only see 30 fps" has gone down considerably over the years. The last 10 years were fantastic in that regard, despite the…
I think people were saying 60fps was the limit but still I agree That being said in the quake days I dont think monitors could go over 60hz anyways so even at 120FPS you were not gaining a similar advantage from what we have today. From what I remember however there were other advantages to high FPS in games like Counterstrike as well in terms of player movement - the monitor might have "smoothed" the motion back dow…
Re: LatencyFleX: A new approach to game latency reduction
#46Great read. I have one nit-pick recommendation for clarity: the article makes no mention of "input latency" anywhere. Saying just "latency" is very confusing since the term applies to many areas of a game, and in most cases will typically be attributed to network latency in multiplayer games.
Re: LatencyFleX: A new approach to game latency reduction
#47I usually get 10ms ping on CSGO.... they must have something better? (I have 5ms right now with a Comcast cable link)... as much as I hate having to call Comcast for any issues, when it works, it is pretty good.)
Input lag has nothing to do with network ping. Input lag is the time between you perform the action and the computer shows that on screen. It depends on your frame rate, refresh rate, and peripheral polling rate, as well as how good the game schedules things (which is what LatencyFleX tries to optimize). Network ping on the other hand is often hidden away. Whether you are on 2ms ping or 100ms ping, the bullet always…
Re: LatencyFleX: A new approach to game latency reduction
#48I just want to say I am glad pro gaming took over. Back in the day it was only Quake players advocating for 120 FPS (for various reasons, including Q3 physics being somewhat broken), 125hz mice and stuff like that. I am talking 20 years ago. The number of lost souls parroting the old "human eye can only see 30 fps" has gone down considerably over the years. The last 10 years were fantastic in that regard, despite the…
I think people were saying 60fps was the limit but still I agree That being said in the quake days I dont think monitors could go over 60hz anyways so even at 120FPS you were not gaining a similar advantage from what we have today. From what I remember however there were other advantages to high FPS in games like Counterstrike as well in terms of player movement - the monitor might have "smoothed" the motion back dow…
Re: LatencyFleX: A new approach to game latency reduction
#49I just want to say I am glad pro gaming took over. Back in the day it was only Quake players advocating for 120 FPS (for various reasons, including Q3 physics being somewhat broken), 125hz mice and stuff like that. I am talking 20 years ago. The number of lost souls parroting the old "human eye can only see 30 fps" has gone down considerably over the years. The last 10 years were fantastic in that regard, despite the…
I believe that nonsense was originally send in the world by the movie industry to have an argument for not increasing the roll sizes and weights to disproportionate sizes. Not to mention that the earliest film rolls were also highly incendiary giving even more incentive not to make them too big or store too many
Part of that however is also highly related to motion blur - many big directors have done tests in theaters showing "HFR" content (like 60fps) and audiences distinctly said they did not like it on average. The D-Day scene from Saving Private Ryan is a good example - it was not shown HFR but they intentionally made the shutter speed faster to give it that "staccato" and jerky and gritty sort of feel. While in photography we use all kinds of shutters speeds for different effects (think of things like using a super fast shutter speed to freeze the propellers of a plane or using a very long shutter speed in a landscape photo with a river so that the river becomes a nice smooth blur) the movie industry mostly abides by the rule of "180 degree shutter" meaning that your shutter speed is 1 over 2x your fps (x=fps). So for most cinema shot at 24fps the shutter speed is 1/48 of a second.
The importance of this is that because you are not shooting still frames and instead of shooting a series of frames to be played back quickly this adds a motion blur effect that smooths the transition between frames and creates a sort of artistic look. There are technical limitations of this blurring (medium fast pans across a scene are a great example - the whole thing becomes too blurred and is hard to see). Any scene with slower moving objects such as people adds a sort of natural motion blur that many cinematographers believe is an artistically ideal choice.
Now that being said you do not need to abide by the 180 degree shutter with modern cameras (like Saving Private Ryan) and one can theoretically choose a variety of shutter speeds for different scenes regardless of what FPS one is shooting at. A fast pan could be shot at something like 1/120 and even at 24FPS it will appear much sharper and easier to make out individual objects (although perhaps not quite as smooth on the panning motion). However you are theoretically limited on the low end to a shutter speed that is approximately equal to your frame rate (or your shutter would be open LONGER than the frame itself and defeat the purpose of shooting "frames" in the first place). So theoretically we could move to 48 FPS content and still shoot at 1/48 and have the same amount of motion blur PER FRAME but also double the amount of frames which would be a large improvement from a technical sense. I haven't seen any films shot this way but I have experimented quite a bit with my own camera shooting at these kinds of speeds and it works quite well. You can also shoot at 24FPS and drag the shutter to 1/24 to get a full stop (double the amount of light) vs normal 24FPS footage if you are shooting in a very dark environment that is already pushing the limits of your cameras sensor. This of course introduces even more motion blur but depending on the scene it may not be very noticeable or even introduce interesting artistic looks.
TLDR: I think we should move to 48 FPS and shoot most content at a variety of shutter speeds, the most common being the already standard 1/48s shutter, and either increase or decrease that within reason depending on the nature of the scene and the desired artistic outcome.
Re: LatencyFleX: A new approach to game latency reduction
#50Great read. I have one nit-pick recommendation for clarity: the article makes no mention of "input latency" anywhere. Saying just "latency" is very confusing since the term applies to many areas of a game, and in most cases will typically be attributed to network latency in multiplayer games.