Lost languages discovered in the oldest continuously run libraries (2017) • Hacker News Board

Re: Lost languages discovered in the oldest continuously run libraries (2017)

#41

Post by newsbinator » Tue, Jan 04, 2022, 4:27 PM UTC

tgv wrote: post #39

newsbinator wrote: post #7

As someone who makes a hobby of learning languages, I am of the highly unpopular opinion that the world would be a better place if we could pick one easy-to-learn language (e.g. Malay) and one super-simple writing system (e.g. South Korean Hangul) and get our species out of the dark ages of having thousands of mutually unintelligible languages. No-one in their right mind would create an ethical, functioning modern so…

What would that solve? Do large societies with a common language do so much better than those with multiple languages? > South Korean Hangul The Roman alphabet is just as simple, and much wider spread. English is a perfectly simple, easy to learn language with great expressive power. So shall we settle on English as the New World Language? Thought so.

That's like comparing learning to drive a car with learning to drive a 747.

No, English isn't a perfectly simple, easy to learn writing system. It's among the hardest writing systems to learn.

Which is why we have a ridiculous game called "Spelling Bees", which can't exist in a language that's easy to write in. In Korea nobody's impressed when an 8-year-old can spell a complex-sounding word they've never heard before and don't know the meaning of: they should be able to spell it.

http://chateauview.com/pronunciation/

> Dearest creature in creation Studying English pronunciation, I will teach you in my verse Sounds like corpse, corps, horse and worse.

> I will keep you, Susy, busy, Make your head with heat grow dizzy; Tear in eye, your dress you’ll tear; Queer, fair seer, hear my prayer.

> Pray, console your loving poet, Make my coat look new, dear, sew it! Just compare heart, hear and heard, Dies and diet, lord and word.

Re: Lost languages discovered in the oldest continuously run libraries (2017)

#42

Post by katsura » Tue, Jan 04, 2022, 4:28 PM UTC

hypertele-Xii wrote: post #8

newsbinator wrote: post #7

As someone who makes a hobby of learning languages, I am of the highly unpopular opinion that the world would be a better place if we could pick one easy-to-learn language (e.g. Malay) and one super-simple writing system (e.g. South Korean Hangul) and get our species out of the dark ages of having thousands of mutually unintelligible languages. No-one in their right mind would create an ethical, functioning modern so…

I read your comment and compare to programming languages. It would be revolutionary to have all computers programmed in the same language, but as different languages are good at different things and evolve concurrently, it's almost inconcievable to make it happen. And you're talking about refactoring not merely an entire industry, but the very language of thought for our species! How can we even begin to approach thi…

Every computer is programmed with the same language, namely 1s and 0s. The other programming languages add certain abstractions to make different things "easier".

But there doesn't exist a human language that you can use to communicate with everyone on Earth. OP seems to propose a 0-1 language (to stay with the computer analogy) everyone could use to communicate with anybody else, while the local languages would be kept the same way as different programming languages are used now (basically to express certain patterns differently).

Re: Lost languages discovered in the oldest continuously run libraries (2017)

#43

Post by newsbinator » Tue, Jan 04, 2022, 4:35 PM UTC

katsura wrote: post #42

hypertele-Xii wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read your comment and compare to programming languages. It would be revolutionary to have all computers programmed in the same language, but as different languages are good at different things and evolve concurrently, it's almost inconcievable to make it happen. And you're talking about refactoring not merely an entire industry, but the very language of thought for our species! How can we even begin to approach thi…

Every computer is programmed with the same language, namely 1s and 0s. The other programming languages add certain abstractions to make different things "easier". But there doesn't exist a human language that you can use to communicate with everyone on Earth. OP seems to propose a 0-1 language (to stay with the computer analogy) everyone could use to communicate with anybody else, while the local languages would be k…

That's a good summary, thanks! With the only departure being that programming in 1s and 0s is very hard for humans and so we develop abstractions on top of it to make it easier.

Whereas the baseline language I'm proposing we use would be very easy for humans, and in fact would be much easier than the local languages that would be kept the same to express whatever they're good at expressing.

Re: Lost languages discovered in the oldest continuously run libraries (2017)

#44

Post by benjaminwai » Tue, Jan 04, 2022, 4:42 PM UTC

newsbinator wrote: post #17

jcranmer wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sure, languages evolve and you can't fight that, but with a global internet and a concerted effort to finally solve the Tower of Babel problem, languages can evolve everywhere at once into a single global language that every child gets brought up speaking. That... is optimistic, to say the least. Languages evolve essentially by having successive generations pick up collectively on idiosyncratic features of the lang…

> you have to work hard to promote only a single version of it Yes, you do have to work to make it happen. Up to now we've given languages a free cultural pass, whereas diseases and poverty we keep shoveling trillions into, and we're proud when we've made a 20% dent. It takes work to pull the species out of what is natural, because what is natural is very often terrible. Diseases naturally evolve to terrorize us. We…

Can language be delinked from culture? Maybe. But can a language survive without a culture to encompass it? If you strip culture from a language, wouldn't the language would become toneless and meaningless? Yes, you can call something a 'net' or a 'fish' at a basic level. However in one culture one might say, "You must cast your net to catch the fish" it's plain what it means and it is meaningful, but for someone without the cultural context, it's a head scratcher and may wonder what fish are you talking about?

I'm too, my native language isn't the one I am writing here. I have lived in quite a few different places. Culture is not something I could make up for myself as I go along, I don't think anyone could do so in isolation. I took in the different bits of cultures that i have experienced through, sometimes to the dismay of those around me. I appreciate the perspective that cultures create languages, and without the cultural reference the language would cease its importance and would die.

Re: Lost languages discovered in the oldest continuously run libraries (2017)

#45

Post by tgv » Tue, Jan 04, 2022, 4:43 PM UTC

newsbinator wrote: post #41

tgv wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would that solve? Do large societies with a common language do so much better than those with multiple languages? > South Korean Hangul The Roman alphabet is just as simple, and much wider spread. English is a perfectly simple, easy to learn language with great expressive power. So shall we settle on English as the New World Language? Thought so.

That's like comparing learning to drive a car with learning to drive a 747. No, English isn't a perfectly simple, easy to learn writing system. It's among the hardest writing systems to learn. Which is why we have a ridiculous game called "Spelling Bees", which can't exist in a language that's easy to write in. In Korea nobody's impressed when an 8-year-old can spell a complex-sounding word they've never heard before…

You said writing system, nothing about phonetic correspondence. But then I'll simply replace English by Spanish. There's of course the silent h which throws a spanner in the works sometimes, and there's the v/b overlap, but extremely easy to pronounce straight from the text, even without understanding. And with 27 letters that don't combine with others into groups, a lot easier to learn than Hangul.

Or Inglish with a speling riform? Det shood bi sooparizi too lurn es wel. End yoo get ol da books end moovis for fri.

Anyway, you haven't replied why you think it's advantageous. All that trouble just to avoid translating here or there, or learning multiple languages? What makes you believe that speaking the same language makes a better place?

Re: Lost languages discovered in the oldest continuously run libraries (2017)

#46

Post by CapitalistCartr » Tue, Jan 04, 2022, 4:45 PM UTC

newsbinator wrote: post #41

tgv wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would that solve? Do large societies with a common language do so much better than those with multiple languages? > South Korean Hangul The Roman alphabet is just as simple, and much wider spread. English is a perfectly simple, easy to learn language with great expressive power. So shall we settle on English as the New World Language? Thought so.

That's like comparing learning to drive a car with learning to drive a 747. No, English isn't a perfectly simple, easy to learn writing system. It's among the hardest writing systems to learn. Which is why we have a ridiculous game called "Spelling Bees", which can't exist in a language that's easy to write in. In Korea nobody's impressed when an 8-year-old can spell a complex-sounding word they've never heard before…

When my Romanian friend came to the United States he was shocked to discover we have have spelling bees. In Romanian it would make no sense; the spelling of a word is usually obvious from saying it. Then there's English. We prefer to merge multiple languages together in the most confusing way.

"The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don’t just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary." --James D. Nicoll

Re: Lost languages discovered in the oldest continuously run libraries (2017)

#47

Post by newsbinator » Tue, Jan 04, 2022, 4:48 PM UTC

benjaminwai wrote: post #44

newsbinator wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you have to work hard to promote only a single version of it Yes, you do have to work to make it happen. Up to now we've given languages a free cultural pass, whereas diseases and poverty we keep shoveling trillions into, and we're proud when we've made a 20% dent. It takes work to pull the species out of what is natural, because what is natural is very often terrible. Diseases naturally evolve to terrorize us. We…

Can language be delinked from culture? Maybe. But can a language survive without a culture to encompass it? If you strip culture from a language, wouldn't the language would become toneless and meaningless? Yes, you can call something a 'net' or a 'fish' at a basic level. However in one culture one might say, "You must cast your net to catch the fish" it's plain what it means and it is meaningful, but for someone wit…

> If you strip culture from a language, wouldn't the language would become toneless and meaningless?

Indeed, languages are toneless and meaningless when divorced from their functional role in connecting people and enabling them to share thoughts.

For that reason languages aren't sacrosanct and are replaceable.

Re: Lost languages discovered in the oldest continuously run libraries (2017)

#48

Post by ksdale » Tue, Jan 04, 2022, 4:52 PM UTC

newsbinator wrote: post #12

muststopmyths wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure you know that there is a reason your opinion is highly unpopular. Language doesn't just communicate fish and net. Poetry, songs and literature just do not seamlessly translate between languages very well. Nor should we lose the calligraphy of Japanese/Chinese/Arabic/Persian. Humanity would lose a lot if we all went to just one language and script. Sure, when all the rich people flee to Elysium or Mars, they…

> Poetry, songs and literature just do not seamlessly translate between languages very well. Nor should we lose the calligraphy of Japanese/Chinese/Arabic/Persian. We don't have to incinerate anything. There won't be a government commission you have to petition to be allowed to do Japanese calligraphy or read a poem in its original language.

I mean, if you don't force people to do it, then English is The One Language you're talking about. People have basically collectively decided that if they're talking to someone halfway around the world, the words for net and fish are net and fish.

Re: Lost languages discovered in the oldest continuously run libraries (2017)

#49

Post by 725686 » Tue, Jan 04, 2022, 4:57 PM UTC

tgv wrote: post #39

newsbinator wrote: post #7

As someone who makes a hobby of learning languages, I am of the highly unpopular opinion that the world would be a better place if we could pick one easy-to-learn language (e.g. Malay) and one super-simple writing system (e.g. South Korean Hangul) and get our species out of the dark ages of having thousands of mutually unintelligible languages. No-one in their right mind would create an ethical, functioning modern so…

What would that solve? Do large societies with a common language do so much better than those with multiple languages? > South Korean Hangul The Roman alphabet is just as simple, and much wider spread. English is a perfectly simple, easy to learn language with great expressive power. So shall we settle on English as the New World Language? Thought so.

"English is a perfectly simple, easy to learn language"

What? English writing and pronunciation are atrocious. There are more exceptions than rules. I thought it was a pretty well known fact. There are languages where you can perfectly pronounce the words even if you don't have the slightest idea of what you are reading.

Re: Lost languages discovered in the oldest continuously run libraries (2017)

#50

Post by paganel » Tue, Jan 04, 2022, 4:58 PM UTC

newsbinator wrote: post #12

muststopmyths wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure you know that there is a reason your opinion is highly unpopular. Language doesn't just communicate fish and net. Poetry, songs and literature just do not seamlessly translate between languages very well. Nor should we lose the calligraphy of Japanese/Chinese/Arabic/Persian. Humanity would lose a lot if we all went to just one language and script. Sure, when all the rich people flee to Elysium or Mars, they…

> Poetry, songs and literature just do not seamlessly translate between languages very well. Nor should we lose the calligraphy of Japanese/Chinese/Arabic/Persian. We don't have to incinerate anything. There won't be a government commission you have to petition to be allowed to do Japanese calligraphy or read a poem in its original language.

Of course not, but the language will get lost, with time.