Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How the Jesuits Charted the World

engelsbergideas.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 51 posts

Re: How the Jesuits Charted the World

#41

Post by cafard »

glutamate wrote: post #34
ganzuul wrote: post #32

Does anybody have reliable information on the political influence excerted by this organization? I hear that it is significant, and that the principles of benevolence are quickly forgotten during power play. Specifically I am wondering what career paths are closed off to non-jesuites, in practice because we all know how nice the theory appears to be?

Jesuit political influence was probably at its height with liberation theology in Latin America 1960-1989. This was effectively ended with the assassination of leading Jesuit intellectuals by a US-trained army battalion in 1989 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_murders_of_Jesuits_in_El_... ).

They were extremely influential during the Counter-Reformation. By comparison, their influence in Latin America was limited.

Re: How the Jesuits Charted the World

#42

Post by cafard »

ganzuul wrote: post #39
glutamate wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jesuit political influence was probably at its height with liberation theology in Latin America 1960-1989. This was effectively ended with the assassination of leading Jesuit intellectuals by a US-trained army battalion in 1989 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_murders_of_Jesuits_in_El_... ).

Do you mean influence in the sense of how often they are mentioned in media? I heard Bill Clinton is Jesuit.

What a charming rumor! He did attend a Jesuit university, but somehow didn't make time for the rather extensive training the Jesuits undergo. But now I'm going to have to make an effort not to refer to him as "Bill Clinton, S.J."

Re: How the Jesuits Charted the World

#43

Post by tptacek »

cafard wrote: post #40
tptacek wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to Jesuit high school and we had to watch "The Mission" (the Jeremy Irons movie) almost as often as Dead Poet's Society. That and "Romero". The good thing about it, though, is that the Jesuits at that school were performatively endorsing liberation theology, which is not something you can say for Catholicism writ large.

"The Mission" did not impress me. The Jesuits of that century did not train up teddy bears.

I doubt it impressed many of the high school sophomores in the room, but it's interesting that a prominent Jesuit high school was so willing to cast the greater Catholic church as a genocidal villain. And whatever you want to say about the Jesuits of the 1700s, the work they did in the 1960's-80's is hard to dunk on.

Re: How the Jesuits Charted the World

#44

Post by cloudedcordial »

stephenhuey wrote: post #15

It’s important not to lump Jesuits in with other groups, or discount all Jesuits in history because of the actions of some. Things I heard growing up in Protestant circles may have biased me towards writing off the Jesuits, but a few years ago I read the 21st century book Heroic Leadership which was written by a Jesuit seminarian who took a surprising turn into investment banking and worked his way up to managing dir…

Thank you for cautioning others not to over-generalize and discount Jesuits in history.

I know someone who has been a Jesuit in the last 10+ years and was ordained a few years ago. At present, the order still encourages education, intellectual pursuits, service to others and learning other's cultures/languages. A number of Jesuits entered religious life with previous experience in many ordinary professions such as teachers and bankers. During the formation, the seminarians work in less privileged places around the world. The most enlightening aspect of the formation admission process is that the superior, using 3rd party medical professionals, ensure that all prospective seminarians have been in excellent mental health.

Re: How the Jesuits Charted the World

#45

Post by glutamate »

ganzuul wrote: post #39
glutamate wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jesuit political influence was probably at its height with liberation theology in Latin America 1960-1989. This was effectively ended with the assassination of leading Jesuit intellectuals by a US-trained army battalion in 1989 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_murders_of_Jesuits_in_El_... ).

Do you mean influence in the sense of how often they are mentioned in media? I heard Bill Clinton is Jesuit.

This is a joke, right? Jesuits are ordained (and therefore unmarried) Roman Catholics. Bill Clinton is none of those things.

Re: How the Jesuits Charted the World

#46

Post by tejtm »

dragonwriter wrote: post #7
tejtm wrote: post #6

Quoted post unavailable.

> In America their mission is correcting Native Americans with "Indian schools". It may be possible, but is certainly difficult, to imagine a more flagrant abuse of the word “is”.

It may also be probable that you were not flagrantly abused by nuns in mandatory cataclysm classes. I was not so lucky, but unlike my classmates, at least I did not get beat again at home when parents learned I had angered the nuns by asking (admittedly loaded) questions.

But "is" is no less than exactly what I carry now. Thank you for you for reaching out to broaden your horizons.

Re: How the Jesuits Charted the World

#47

Post by dragonwriter »

tejtm wrote: post #46
dragonwriter wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In America their mission is correcting Native Americans with "Indian schools". It may be possible, but is certainly difficult, to imagine a more flagrant abuse of the word “is”.

It may also be probable that you were not flagrantly abused by nuns in mandatory cataclysm classes. I was not so lucky, but unlike my classmates, at least I did not get beat again at home when parents learned I had angered the nuns by asking (admittedly loaded) questions. But "is" is no less than exactly what I carry now. Thank you for you for reaching out to broaden your horizons.

> It may also be probable that you were not flagrantly abused by nuns in mandatory cataclysm classes.

I’m not sure what bearing that has on a factual understanding of the current mission of the Jesuit order (which whatever other present or past offenses it can legitimately be blamed for, abuses committed by nuns in “cataclysm” classes is a pretty big stretch) in the North America.

Re: How the Jesuits Charted the World

#48

Post by tejtm »

dragonwriter wrote: post #47
tejtm wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may also be probable that you were not flagrantly abused by nuns in mandatory cataclysm classes. I was not so lucky, but unlike my classmates, at least I did not get beat again at home when parents learned I had angered the nuns by asking (admittedly loaded) questions. But "is" is no less than exactly what I carry now. Thank you for you for reaching out to broaden your horizons.

> It may also be probable that you were not flagrantly abused by nuns in mandatory cataclysm classes. I’m not sure what bearing that has on a factual understanding of the current mission of the Jesuit order (which whatever other present or past offenses it can legitimately be blamed for, abuses committed by nuns in “cataclysm” classes is a pretty big stretch) in the North America.

ah spellcheck; "catechism"

No longer being sure is a good start, keep it up it you can.

Re: How the Jesuits Charted the World

#49

Post by inawarminister »

elnatro wrote: post #36
throwaway4858 wrote: post #25

My Spanish surname is a lasting legacy of the Jesuits deciding to rename (by sword or by reward) entire villages during the 16th century. https://mb.com.ph/2020/07/05/the-jesuits-in-the-philippines/

English (or Americans) colonizers would have wiped out your entire village. They haven’t even considered you human (like the natives of Australia).

This is a whataboutism apologia, which is cool. But the English mainly "lucked" out by settling into pre-agriculture (or post-agriculture) places with very small number of natives. Where there are many, like in Canada, New Zealand and even CONUS, the English (and most protestant colonizers) were much more willing to live and let live compared to Catholics.

But the Conquistadors were just the first anyway, all the later colonizers were able to learn from them. So is all cool.

Re: How the Jesuits Charted the World

#50

Post by elnatro »

inawarminister wrote: post #49
elnatro wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

English (or Americans) colonizers would have wiped out your entire village. They haven’t even considered you human (like the natives of Australia).

This is a whataboutism apologia, which is cool. But the English mainly "lucked" out by settling into pre-agriculture (or post-agriculture) places with very small number of natives. Where there are many, like in Canada, New Zealand and even CONUS, the English (and most protestant colonizers) were much more willing to live and let live compared to Catholics. But the Conquistadors were just the first anyway, all the lat…

Sure, Protestants were much more likely to let natives alive, that’s why Native Americans were exterminated (e.g. broken treaties with natives) and moved to reservations and South American natives were considered people in the XVI century by the Catholic Monarchs.
Post reply on HN