Don't dumb girls down • Hacker News Board

Re: Don't dumb girls down

#41

Post by _delirium » Tue, Sep 06, 2011, 9:51 AM UTC

wgren wrote: post #18

chrischen wrote: post #17

"Teaching girls that their appearance is the first thing you notice tells them that looks are more important than anything." But when you see someone for the first time appearances are the first thing you notice... unless you can read minds. Looks are important. Both men and women keep up appearances. Furthermore, you know how smart you are, and no amount of telling you your appearance is a great asset is going to ma…

>But when you see someone for the first time appearances are the first thing you notice... unless you can read minds. Yet when talking to boys, people generally don't say - "Oh, what a handsome boy you are, and how nicely you dress!" as an opening phrase. We don't sell these kind of tshirts to boys: http://boingboing.net/2011/08/31/jc-penny-t-shirt-now-pulled... >Looks are important. [...] no amount of telling you yo…

> Yet when talking to boys, people generally don't say - "Oh, what a handsome boy you are, and how nicely you dress!"

I agree it's not symmetrical, but I do hear this kind of thing directed at male children pretty frequently, especially in the relatives/family-friends type setting. "Oh what a handsome young man you have!" isn't uncommon at all. Though I do tend to associate it with older women, for some reason; at least as a young lad myself, I think it's a comment I heard mostly from older aunts.

Re: Don't dumb girls down

#42

Post by ErrantX » Tue, Sep 06, 2011, 9:51 AM UTC

_debug_ wrote: post #35

erikb wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and... is that the author: http://www.lisabloom.com/ ? Isn't she pretty?

Her web site features her looks more than her books. (In case it changes : 80% of the space is occupied by a photo of hers, and 20% by textual content). Do as I say, not as I do.

This is not uncommon.

Or, rather, whenever I see these self-help/express yourself better/empower yourself authors they all look very attractive and poised. Female and Male.

Which annoys me. The advice in this case is good, and it doesn't feel entirely hypocritical because she admits an initial instinct to praise good looks that she has to suppress. But some of her other stuff seems less so (i.e. she is selling herself as "look, I am attractive, smiling, happy! Read my books to find out why" - and then the books are [apparently] about getting over things like beauty..)

Re: Don't dumb girls down

#43

Post by justatdotin » Tue, Sep 06, 2011, 9:53 AM UTC

127 wrote: post #14

sgentle wrote: post #5

This reminds me of a story that I wish I could find again. It was in the Reader's Digest Young Peoples' Annual from sometime in the 60s. I read it in the 90s, so some of the advice ("don't go dutch too often") was truly perplexing, but this particular story was about a girl who played baseball. She always sat and watched the boys play baseball. One boy in particular caught her eye. He asked if she wanted to play and…

Human biology is not that quick to change. It demonstrates a large amount of hubris to even think it should be. Women marry up and across dominance hierarchies. Artificially boosting the career success of women just causes misery on the long run for men and for society. I thought that the girl in your story was very smart, and even if people had treated her like a pretty doll for her entire life she would still be th…

hey, I hear you, bro: I can tell you from personal experience that it sure is ruff bein a rich white man in this day and age ...

Re: Don't dumb girls down

#44

Post by Tichy » Tue, Sep 06, 2011, 9:54 AM UTC

erikb wrote: post #12

erikb wrote: post #10

I often read such articles from women, but never from men. After looking deeply at myself and how the world around me acts, I feel that it is really true: Women ARE evaluated mostly by their looks. Women who look good, wear good clothes, have a good makeup, will get what they want much more easily then others. To some degree that is also true for men. It is just how the world IS. So instead of teaching girls about th…

and... is that the author: http://www.lisabloom.com/ ? Isn't she pretty?

Also next up: the story how she spent an entire evening reading books with an ugly girl.

Re: Don't dumb girls down

#45

Post by Tichy » Tue, Sep 06, 2011, 9:55 AM UTC

hessenwolf wrote: post #26

ordinary wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you'd be doing people a favour by teaching them to accept things that won't make them happy. Do you think that people who don't worry about not being beautiful are less happy than people who do, considering that many (most?) people are not, in fact, beautiful? Do you think the world would be a worse place if more girls wanted to win the Nobel Peace Prize rather than America's Next Top Model?

Looking like a contestant for America's next top model is not really going to get a girl far in her career, though... Both men and women should care, in detail, about their aesthetics when at work. They should be healthy and fit, and, unless they are very sure they have the fashion sense to get away with interesting clothes, be conservatively and neatly dressed. Anything less smacks of imcompetence, poor organisation…

Unless she wants to have a career as a top model. Then looking like a top model could help a lot.

Re: Don't dumb girls down

#46

Post by kamaal » Tue, Sep 06, 2011, 9:57 AM UTC

jwingy wrote: post #7

As a guy, and a geek, I definitely find intelligence highly attractive (and I think most of you would agree with me). Since geeks will eventually inherit the earth, wouldn't it be advantageous to start teaching our women how they can get ahead on this curve by flaunting their intelligence? :)

Well if you start doing that, you would spark off a new debate.

"Don't tell girls how intelligent they are".

Because then the very analogical argument will be used to say - telling girls they are intelligent is making them under perform in other areas.

In short, if you are not ready work hard and do something on yourself by your work alone. There are plenty of reasons you can use to justify what you are.

Re: Don't dumb girls down

#47

Post by 127 » Tue, Sep 06, 2011, 9:59 AM UTC

justatdotin wrote: post #43

127 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Human biology is not that quick to change. It demonstrates a large amount of hubris to even think it should be. Women marry up and across dominance hierarchies. Artificially boosting the career success of women just causes misery on the long run for men and for society. I thought that the girl in your story was very smart, and even if people had treated her like a pretty doll for her entire life she would still be th…

hey, I hear you, bro: I can tell you from personal experience that it sure is ruff bein a rich white man in this day and age ...

Harder than being a young and beautiful woman.

Re: Don't dumb girls down

#48

Post by anujkk » Tue, Sep 06, 2011, 9:59 AM UTC

Whenever I think about "beauty" this poem automatically comes to my mind -

Beautiful faces are those that wear–

It matters little if dark or fair–

Whole-souled honesty printed there.

Beautiful eyes are those that show,

Like crystal panes where hearth-fires glow,

Beautiful thoughts that burn below.

Beautiful lips are those whose words

Leap from the heart like songs of birds,

Yet whose utterance prudence girds.

Beautiful hands are those that do

Work that is earnest and brave and true,

Moment by moment the long day through.

Beautiful feet are those that go

On kindly ministries to and fro,

Down lowliest ways if God wills it so.

Beautiful shoulders are those that bear

Ceaseless burdens of homely care,

With patient grace and daily prayer.

Beautiful twilight at set of sun,

Beautiful goal with race well won,

Beautiful rest with work well done.

Beautiful graves where grasses creep,

Where brown leaves fall, where drifts lie deep,

Over worn-out hands! Ah, beautiful sleep.

–Ellen P. Allerton

Re: Don't dumb girls down

#49

Post by ErrantX » Tue, Sep 06, 2011, 10:01 AM UTC

I was musing on this the other day (beware; anecdote alert!). I went out for some drinks with a friend of mine from a long time ago - he is certainly not the sharpest of individuals, but a laugh and good fun in small doses (even if a lot of the jokes include farts :S).

For some reason he is also constantly surrounded by very attractive women. I've seen him out and about before and thought "I'd like to have some of that!". But my first impression when we were hanging out was that all these girls shared two things in common - good looks and zero intelligence. Most of the fart jokes came from them.

Which was a bit of a shock!

It took me a while to figure out that most of them weren't actually thick. I managed to have a conversation with one of them later on; and found she was a psychology graduate (one of my favourite pet interests :)), had even published a research paper on her work. Which was just confusing... there was this smart good looking girl, and she was hanging around acting thick.

Then I worked it out... they were acting as they were expected to (either by our perception or theirs) on a night out; shove on the lipstick, revert to street talk, laugh at fart jokes and play dumb around the men. The psychologist actually even said this about her career (paraphrasing): "oh.. well I never really tell people that, it puts them off".

Which is just a fucking sad reflection on society.

Re: Don't dumb girls down

#50

Post by vectorpush » Tue, Sep 06, 2011, 10:04 AM UTC

127 wrote: post #14

sgentle wrote: post #5

This reminds me of a story that I wish I could find again. It was in the Reader's Digest Young Peoples' Annual from sometime in the 60s. I read it in the 90s, so some of the advice ("don't go dutch too often") was truly perplexing, but this particular story was about a girl who played baseball. She always sat and watched the boys play baseball. One boy in particular caught her eye. He asked if she wanted to play and…

Human biology is not that quick to change. It demonstrates a large amount of hubris to even think it should be. Women marry up and across dominance hierarchies. Artificially boosting the career success of women just causes misery on the long run for men and for society. I thought that the girl in your story was very smart, and even if people had treated her like a pretty doll for her entire life she would still be th…

>It demonstrates a large amount of hubris to even think it should be.

So what? It's this same hubris which bucks against the biological directive to impregnate every fertile female that enters your field of vision. Since when do humans settle for the biological imperative?