The secret Uganda deal that has brought NSO to the brink of collapse • Hacker News Board

Re: The secret Uganda deal that has brought NSO to the brink of collapse

#41

Post by vkou » Wed, Dec 22, 2021, 6:12 PM UTC

bawolff wrote: post #13

hermes8329 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that sarcasm? The Israelis spying on the us is hardly anything new

There's a pretty big difference between israel, the country spying on somebody out of national interest, and israel allowing what is essentially an arms-dealer based in israel to help random other people spy on countries they are allied with. I highly doubt that israel the country wanted this turn of events, for the simple reason they are not stupid and the cost-benefit ratio of this seems bad for them.

> There's a pretty big difference between israel, the country spying on somebody out of national interest, and israel allowing what is essentially an arms-dealer based in israel to help random other people spy on countries they are allied with.

Yes and sort of and no.

The thing with weapons is that occasionally you sell them to people you end up fighting. Take the Falklands war - Argentina was using American, French, and British weapons to fight the British. It happens, it's a bit of egg on everyone's face, but it is what it is.

When you're a major arms dealer, you'll eventually end up selling guns to an enemy of your ally, or supposed ally.

Re: The secret Uganda deal that has brought NSO to the brink of collapse

#42

Post by vaughnegut » Wed, Dec 22, 2021, 6:26 PM UTC

shmatt wrote: post #21

yardie wrote: post #4

Which is odd because NSO made many assurances to the US govt they were in control of the tech and that US nationals were not to be included. Looks like they weren't in as much control as they stated they were.

US nationals have never been protected. If you make an international phone call the government can track it[1]. If its internal they can't without a warrant NSO built in a complete block of +1 phone numbers. But those US diplomats were not using +1. Which itself is a security issue that i'm sure is already being discussed at the state department [1] https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/04/07/dea-bulk-tele...

Would that imply that it would function as well for Canadian phone numbers, since they share a country code?

Re: The secret Uganda deal that has brought NSO to the brink of collapse

#43

Post by dylan604 » Wed, Dec 22, 2021, 6:34 PM UTC

>Looks like Uganda tried to hack 11 US diplomats, which ended up giving away the game, and getting everyone upset — and for but a pittance in revenue.

Isn't this why most spy agencies are very afraid to use their most prized assets in fear of revealing the assets?

Re: The secret Uganda deal that has brought NSO to the brink of collapse

#44

Post by bobthepanda » Wed, Dec 22, 2021, 7:00 PM UTC

hervature wrote: post #33

wins32767 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems silly to call it a security issue when the bulk of the day to day activities for many state department employees is working closely with local nationals. Do you really want to make your average Ugandan caterer make an international call to the US in order to coordinate food delivery for an embassy event?

Having a "caterer and friends" local dumbphone and an international phone for actual business doesn't seem unreasonable.

It's not unreasonable, but people get sloppy with cell phones.

Like the whole business around US military bases and Strava.

Re: The secret Uganda deal that has brought NSO to the brink of collapse

#45

Post by cycomanic » Wed, Dec 22, 2021, 7:14 PM UTC

The difference in response from the US to hacking of their diplomat phones compared to the response in Germany to the US listening on calls from Merkel and others is really telling. It makes you question how independent European countries really are from the US.

Re: The secret Uganda deal that has brought NSO to the brink of collapse

#46

Post by jprd » Wed, Dec 22, 2021, 7:19 PM UTC

kingcharles wrote: post #34

motohagiography wrote: post #16

I commented previously that the Uganda case was the first truly legitimate application of NSO's tech and the first one that wasn't actually a scandal, as it was by a state without a mature domestic intelligence capability going to market to buy tools of one, to spy on actual spies in its borders. It seems this particular NSO case is being used as bargaining leverage to discredit Israel's position in the Iran nuclear…

You're absolutely right, and I don't think anyone else has made that point. The problem was the spies they tried to fuck with were American spies and American wasn't going to stand for that. As you say, NSO are now just a toy, and if they are destroyed thanks to this, no-one is going to give a fuck.

I cannot see a world in which use of NSO tech is legitimate. Get a court order to tap the phone line, etc.

How can usage of a Mossad / IDF tool be considered legitimate? Just because the ruling party in a state decides so, doesn't mean this has any bearing on human rights or _legitimacy_.

China is eradicating Uyghur culture and running for-profit concentration camps. These are legitimate uses of their Governmental powers. Does that make them ethical? Of course not.

Technology like this is dystopian and anti-humanity. There is no way that this technology is profitable, exported and somehow used for "legitimate" purposes. The entire enterprise is predicated on making vulnerable people more vulnerable. The end result is more Khashoggi awfulness, how could it NOT be?

Re: The secret Uganda deal that has brought NSO to the brink of collapse

#47

Post by shmatt » Wed, Dec 22, 2021, 7:20 PM UTC

wins32767 wrote: post #31

shmatt wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US nationals have never been protected. If you make an international phone call the government can track it[1]. If its internal they can't without a warrant NSO built in a complete block of +1 phone numbers. But those US diplomats were not using +1. Which itself is a security issue that i'm sure is already being discussed at the state department [1] https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/04/07/dea-bulk-tele...

Seems silly to call it a security issue when the bulk of the day to day activities for many state department employees is working closely with local nationals. Do you really want to make your average Ugandan caterer make an international call to the US in order to coordinate food delivery for an embassy event?

Does the US State Department trust the local Ugandan Best Buy employees not to run a swim swap for $50? or $10,000?

With an Ugandan sim comes the security of the Ugandan mobile network and its employees

Re: The secret Uganda deal that has brought NSO to the brink of collapse

#48

Post by jimkleiber » Wed, Dec 22, 2021, 7:31 PM UTC

jprd wrote: post #46

kingcharles wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're absolutely right, and I don't think anyone else has made that point. The problem was the spies they tried to fuck with were American spies and American wasn't going to stand for that. As you say, NSO are now just a toy, and if they are destroyed thanks to this, no-one is going to give a fuck.

I cannot see a world in which use of NSO tech is legitimate. Get a court order to tap the phone line, etc. How can usage of a Mossad / IDF tool be considered legitimate? Just because the ruling party in a state decides so, doesn't mean this has any bearing on human rights or _legitimacy_. China is eradicating Uyghur culture and running for-profit concentration camps. These are legitimate uses of their Governmental po…

I'd say mostly because we don't have transnational law that has teeth. Most nations have laws prohibiting murder, yet if one nation does it to another nation, somehow it's not illegal.

I think many of us may fear a transnational government, yet we have transnational organized crime, transnational companies, transnational communication networks, etc. at some point, I hope we also get more transnational governance to balance some of those other entities.

Re: The secret Uganda deal that has brought NSO to the brink of collapse

#49

Post by jprd » Wed, Dec 22, 2021, 7:33 PM UTC

Terry_Roll wrote: post #26

yardie wrote: post #4

Which is odd because NSO made many assurances to the US govt they were in control of the tech and that US nationals were not to be included. Looks like they weren't in as much control as they stated they were.

I think NSO are scapegoats, because how hard is it for a country to setup up a honeypot device to analyse NSO'a attack vectors and then copy it for their own use whilst being able to blame it on NSO? I say this because I've had stuff done to my phones in the past, one strange incident with a "hacked" phone was selecting an AirBnB, which I believe directed me to a few of their "safe" houses. Other examples, include ba…

It is astounding to me that a state as paranoid as Israel has leaned so hard into the far-right that they would actively sell some of that highly sensitive tech to other states that not that long ago had a death wish for Israel as a main position of said state.

A state born of hard-edged refugees escaping a world that had recently written them off to die, carried through several existential wars, and now they are EMPOWERING that same evil.

Also, please please do not trot out the "NSO isn't Mossad/IDF" nonsense. I wouldn't be surprised if all of this was a façade to penetrate the infrastructure of states that Israel wanted to monitor.

There has never been a more competent, sophisticated, and dedicated group than that of Israeli intelligence. To imagine that they would allow all this as an oversight without some state benefit is not something my brain can comprehend.

Re: The secret Uganda deal that has brought NSO to the brink of collapse

#50

Post by jeroenhd » Wed, Dec 22, 2021, 7:34 PM UTC

jprd wrote: post #46

kingcharles wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're absolutely right, and I don't think anyone else has made that point. The problem was the spies they tried to fuck with were American spies and American wasn't going to stand for that. As you say, NSO are now just a toy, and if they are destroyed thanks to this, no-one is going to give a fuck.

I cannot see a world in which use of NSO tech is legitimate. Get a court order to tap the phone line, etc. How can usage of a Mossad / IDF tool be considered legitimate? Just because the ruling party in a state decides so, doesn't mean this has any bearing on human rights or _legitimacy_. China is eradicating Uyghur culture and running for-profit concentration camps. These are legitimate uses of their Governmental po…

In a well-functioning system (of which there are very few in this world), it's possible to use these tools responsibly.

For example, you could secure access and get insight into a terrorist ring using encrypted messengers, once the necessary paperwork has been done, reviewed and approved by an independent judge. Phone taps and internet taps worked great until everything became encrypted. Hard drives that cannot be accessed, conversations that cannot be monitored, you name it; the governments of the world have a difficult decision to make after about 120 years of easy access to criminal's conspiracies.

I'm not sure if there's any system of government in the world I'd currently trust with this power, but it's not inherently impossible to use these tools ethically. At the end of the day, governments are desperate for a solution for the encrypted nature of modern data and communications and don't think that there are any other solutions than either allowing the police to hack or banning/restricting encryption. I'm not sure which option I prefer, but I believe (fear) either will become the accepted norm within our lifetimes.