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New York City to require employers to list minimum and maximum salaries

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Re: New York City to require employers to list minimum and maximum salaries

#41

Post by DarylZero »

rahimnathwani wrote: post #35
Manuel_D wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the employer in good faith believes So unless you can read minds, it'd be hard to prove that the employer doesn't believe this is the salary range. And besides, 10K to 1M is a pedantically large range to illustrate this dynamic. Realistically a lot of companies could provide a range from $60K to $300K for software developers - both of these are salaries I can attest to firsthand. This isn't as stark as a 100:1 rang…

For software engineering compensation, wide salary range isn't the biggest issue. It's that much of the compensation (often 25% to 60%) isn't salary: it's stock and discretionary bonus. I haven't read the background for this law, but I guess it's meant to help people earning less than $100k, and people with less power to negotiate an initial offer.

It's meant to help people applying for jobs, the vast majority of whom don't get the job, so it's not really about the people who get hired.

Re: New York City to require employers to list minimum and maximum salaries

#43

Post by dwaltrip »

Manuel_D wrote: post #39
distribot wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't the company be compelled to provide salary data for the role? I assume there is some kind of enforcement mechanism. So then it's a matter of explaining why your lowest paid senior engineer makes 150k, the median makes 200k and you've listed a floor of 10k? The judge/jury don't have to accept a smarmy response about how the hypothetical candidate might conceivably make 10k. And on the subject of the window, most…

An 60k is easily an entry level salary. And 300k is easily a principal engineer's salary. Put the two under the same job title and then you can say to the jury, "it's not just credible that this salary range could exist, this range actually already exist right now."

Good luck convincing your principal engineers to take the same job title as the entry level engineers.

Re: New York City to require employers to list minimum and maximum salaries

#44

Post by kf6nux »

hellisothers wrote: post #42

At least in tech this has been mostly worthless in CA where your equity makes up 25-75% of your total comp and isn’t required to be reported since it isn’t your “salary”.

It depends a lot on where you land in tech (both department and company). That's definitely true for SWEs at FAANG companies.

I wonder what it would take to update these laws to require total comp disclosure instead of simply salary disclosure.

Re: New York City to require employers to list minimum and maximum salaries

#45

Post by Manuel_D »

dwaltrip wrote: post #43
Manuel_D wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An 60k is easily an entry level salary. And 300k is easily a principal engineer's salary. Put the two under the same job title and then you can say to the jury, "it's not just credible that this salary range could exist, this range actually already exist right now."

Good luck convincing your principal engineers to take the same job title as the entry level engineers.

They do at my company. Everyone is just "Software Developer". I don't see anything wrong with it, I find that titles are largely meaningless anyways. At some companies "principal engineer" is handed out after 3-4 years of experience, and at others principal engineer is the highest title with only 1-2% of devs holding it.

Re: New York City to require employers to list minimum and maximum salaries

#46

Post by DarylZero »

frankbreetz wrote: post #30
Spivak wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What “small” company is hiring employees in so many countries that it’s burdensome to publish wages on their website.

Any company that wants to be "worldwide remote". You have to post the info before you hire, so if you if want to hire anywhere in the world you have to meet the requirements for every country. Even if you only end up hiring from a couple countries

So all remote jobs will have to post salaries if they want any hires from NYC?

Sounds good to me.

Re: New York City to require employers to list minimum and maximum salaries

#47

Post by DarylZero »

999900000999 wrote: post #34
tablespoon wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only if you ignore unintended consequences Some people seem to think the hand-waved threat of "unintended consequences" should be enough to kill any policy they happen to dislike. It's not. I'm tired of the broken record fearmongering about unintended consequences, especially when it's paired (as it always is) with no constructive alternative to address the problem in question. It's an unpersuasive attempt at preve…

I don't see anything that needs improving. If you don't have the courage to ask how much the job pays on the first call that's your problem. If you agree to a certain wage that's what you agreed to.

This lets you see the salary before you even choose to apply.

By the way, your whole story makes no sense. If you weren't qualified why did you even get an interview?

Re: New York City to require employers to list minimum and maximum salaries

#48

Post by DarylZero »

sokoloff wrote: post #38
chrismcb wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Why would you ask to be paid less?

The alternative is no pay, not higher pay. If the employer thinks that you don't meet all the qualifications that they'd like, there are two reasonable outcomes: 1. The most likely => you don't get any offer. 2. You mutually agree to take a lower offer. It's a lower offer, but it's also much, much greater than zero. You got your foot in the door, can develop your skills, earn an income, and make progress in your care…

If you don't meet all the qualifications how are you getting your foot in the door? How are you getting interviews without qualifications?

I think the most likely scenario if you don't meet the qualifications is you get ghosted.

With salary requirements, maybe people will waste less time on pointless applications, and there will be less ghosting.

Re: New York City to require employers to list minimum and maximum salaries

#49

Post by 999900000999 »

DarylZero wrote: post #47
999900000999 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see anything that needs improving. If you don't have the courage to ask how much the job pays on the first call that's your problem. If you agree to a certain wage that's what you agreed to.

This lets you see the salary before you even choose to apply. By the way, your whole story makes no sense. If you weren't qualified why did you even get an interview?

Startups tend to take chances on less qualified candidates to save money.

There's plenty of opportunity in this country if you're willing to work for it.

Re: New York City to require employers to list minimum and maximum salaries

#50

Post by Manuel_D »

DarylZero wrote: post #40
Manuel_D wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the employer in good faith believes So unless you can read minds, it'd be hard to prove that the employer doesn't believe this is the salary range. And besides, 10K to 1M is a pedantically large range to illustrate this dynamic. Realistically a lot of companies could provide a range from $60K to $300K for software developers - both of these are salaries I can attest to firsthand. This isn't as stark as a 100:1 rang…

> unless you can read minds, it'd be hard to prove That's not how it works. There is going to be an evidentiary standard (such as "preponderance of the evidence" -- it won't be "beyond a reasonable doubt") applied by an administrative law judge. The judge can very well decide he CAN read minds -- unless YOU can read minds, or he decides to tell you, you won't know.

It'd still be easy to meet that evidentiary standard: point to an entry level software developer making ~$60k and point to a much more experienced one making north of a quarter million. Such a spread is not hard to find
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